Examination of witnesses
(Questions 83 - 99)
WEDNESDAY 25 NOVEMBER 1998
MR JOHN
MCFALL,
MP, MR
PADDY MANNING,
MR DAVID
MCCORMICK
and MR NEILL
JACKSON
Chairman: Minister, it is a pleasure
to see you, and very good of you and your colleagues to come and
give evidence. Although we have been told who they are, it may
be helpful if, for the record, they are introduced. I will, in
a moment, ask you if there is anything you would like to say,
before we get down to asking questions. We do try to make the
questions follow a logical pattern, and therefore the questions
may come from different corners and quarters of the horseshoe.
If there is anything that either yourself or any other witness
feels they subsequently want to gloss, we are perfectly happy
to have a written note afterwards, and it may well be that we
will have questions which we would want to ask you in a written
form after the event, as well. Although I am very old, I am still
young enough to remember the first time I appeared in the capacity
in which you are appearing, Minister. I say to you, as a moral
warning, that after I had given a piece of evidence, which was
helpful to the Government of which I was a member, I was then
sufficiently intellectually honest to give an alternative piece
of information, which was not helpful to the Government but which
I thought ought to be expressed. The Manchester Guardian, the
following day, printed my second observation, but not my first;
which contained a moral for me, in terms of political life.
Mr Livingstone: This was before spin
doctors, obviously.
Chairman: Absolutely right. You are
quite right, Mr Livingstone, I operated without the benefit of
that kind of advice.
Mr McWalter: Obviously, Chair, we
hope that Mr McFall follows your example on this and is indiscreet,
to make life more interesting for us.
Chairman
83. If you would like to introduce your
colleagues, and, equally, if there is something you would like
to say, please do not hesitate to do so?
(Mr McFall) Fine; thank you very much, Mr Brooke,
and thank you for the invitation to address you. Like yourself,
I have been behind there an awful lot, but the first time here,
so it is quite a change for me, and a few nerves on that. But
could I introduce Mr Paddy Manning, on my left; he is Inspector
of Special Education and Training in the Inspectorate. We have,
on my immediate left, David McCormick, who is Head of Special
Education Branch in the Department of Education, Northern Ireland.
And, on my right, Neill Jackson is in the Teachers and Special
Education Division of the Department of Education. Could I open
up with just a few remarks, if you do not mind.
84. We would be delighted to hear them.
(Mr McFall) Thank you. Obviously, I welcome the
opportunity today to appear before the Committee and I know the
work that you have put into this particular issue, and I look
forward to discussing the various issues which have arisen in
the evidence you have had and the visits you have undertaken.
But I know that you have met many people and received a wide number
of views, and I feel it would be helpful if I spoke to you from
the perspective of the unprecedented activity over the past two
years in special education legislation, policy and administration.
I think you will agree that special education in Northern Ireland
is undergoing its most radical change in ten years. Major new
legislation came into force in September 1997, and the Code of
Practice has just been implemented, in September 1998; these are
having an impact throughout the system, covering for the first
time all children with special educational needs, both statemented
and non-statemented. And new disciplines are imposed on the Education
and Library Boards and their professional advisers, in that, first,
policies must be clearly articulated, statements must be written
in more detail, time limits must now apply to the assessment and
statementing process, and annual reviews must be more rigorously
structured. Now parents enjoy significant new statutory rights,
with the Code of Practice; that includes the right to information
from Boards, the right to express a preference of school, new
rights of appeal against the Boards' decisions, and access to
an independent Tribunal. The schools also have major new tasks,
especially in making effective provision for those pupils whose
special needs should not require reference to the Board for formal
assessment. And they include drawing up a special educational
needs policy at school level, meeting the requirement of a new
statutory Code of Practice to improve identification of special
needs, designating a teacher to act as a special educational needs
co-ordinator, maintaining a special educational needs register,
and maintaining individual education plans for special educational
needs pupils. And, at the same time, mainstream classes are catering
for their highest ever number of statemented pupils: 28 per cent
of statemented pupils are now in mainstream education, double
what it was seven years ago. So the priority which the Government
places on special education has been underlined by significant
additional resources, which we have earmarked for the next three
years, and subject to the Comprehensive Spending Review; we can
discuss these as we go, in the Committee. But, in addition to
securing these resources, we have taken steps to facilitate monitoring
of the impact of the new measures through a research study commissioned
by us from the University of Newcastle-on-Tyne, which has established
a baseline for special educational needs provision in our schools.
The Newcastle project was not the only study of special educational
needs to be completed this year, and, as you are aware, the Forum
of Northern Ireland and the Audit Office published reports; they
provide for us valuable comments and analysis and we are studying
their recommendations carefully. The Audit report has drawn particular
attention to the need for a careful and detailed examination of
the information systems which need to be in place, and between
Boards and the Department, if the resources dedicated to special
educational needs are to be effectively monitored and managed.
And I am pleased to note that the Chief Executives—as they
have informed you—have responded positively and are taking
action. Obviously, the challenges to make the system even more
responsive will continue. But we must be mindful of the capacity
of the schools to respond to yet further change after a period
of such rapid innovation, and a full agenda is emerging, which
we will undoubtedly carry forward into the life of the new Assembly.
However, the legislation and the Code of Practice and the additional
resources we are making available have laid a strong foundation
for future developments and improvements. Thank you very much.
Chairman: Minister, we are much in
your debt for that. The pattern of the inquiry, which has obviously
spanned the summer recess, means that it is really quite a long
time since we received the original memorandum from your Department,
I think therefore it is very helpful to have an update at this
juncture. I am not going to take you up on what you have just
said, though I repeat that we are in your debt for having provided
it; because Mr Livingstone, in our number, cannot be with us indefinitely
and I am therefore going to ask him to ask the first questions
to you.
Mr Livingstone
85. Thank you very much, Chairman. Good
afternoon, Minister. I was wondering, given we all welcome your
Department's view that the Warnock 2 per cent figure is outdated,
what sort of figure you see in the future, and, in particular,
given at the moment you have got twice as many boys as girls being
statemented, whether you are going to look into that, whether
there is any particular programme for dealing with that, as well?
(Mr McFall) As you suggest, the Warnock figure
is out of date, and what I have mentioned to the Department and
to the schools that I have visited is, I see that as a notional
figure. We are now starting from first principles with statementing
and all the needs of the child have to be accommodated with statementing,
and once we get that right then we can think of figures, but I
feel it would be a distraction at the moment just to look at figures,
let us look at it fundamentally. The Code of Practice, in operation
in September, we have had the opportunity of four years' experience
in England and Wales with that, and schools and teachers have
been working with the Code of Practice for the past year in Northern
Ireland, so we would expect the number of statemented children
to increase as a result of that. But maybe in the longer term,
given the early intervention programmes and the training we have
for schools, and the need for schools to make this issue a whole
school policy, we can have better scrutinising and monitoring
and evaluation, and perhaps it will go down. But it is the fundamental
right of the children and their parents that we are starting off
from here, from first principles.
86. And on the issue of the imbalance between
boys and girls being statemented, is there any thinking in the
Department about why that might be, what can be done about it
in the future; is it something that we see as temporary, perhaps
linked to the troubles?
(Mr McFall) I think it is historical, and is related
to what we could term deprived areas, and I know in your questions
to the Department you were looking at the link between statementing
and free school meals; we did not have that information available
because it was at an Education and Library Board level. So there
are many complexities to that issue. I do not have any ready answer
as to why it would be boys rather than girls, but maybe if you
want any of my colleagues to give you an insight into that: Paddy.
(Mr Manning) Perhaps traditionally more boys have
been statemented than girls. A number of the conditions, things
like autism, behavioural difficulties, are traditionally areas
in which boys are assessed more frequently than girls. A number
of factors, a number of research studies have shown that that
is because there is a propensity among young boys for these types
of difficulties, many more suffer from autism, many more suffer
from the advanced behavioural difficulties. And there is no evidence
to suggest that, at age 11, girls who are not statemented are
significantly further behind, so, in other words, that the suggestion
would appear to be that somehow girls are disadvantaged by not
being statemented; in fact, there is no evidence to suggest that.
Obviously, the Boards statement pupils on referral, referrals
are made to the Boards, coming from either parents or from schools;
the fact is that fewer girls are referred. There may be sociological
reasons why that is the case, that girls get more support in the
home at an earlier age, perhaps cultural links between girls and
their mothers, particularly in single parent families, and the
difficulties that boys have in the more socially deprived areas,
but there is no significant evidence that that imbalance in statementing
is actually disadvantaging girls.
(Mr McFall) Could I say, Mr Livingstone, from
my own experience, many years ago I was a school-teacher in a
Glasgow school and I had the privilege of establishing what we
called a `truancy unit' at the time, it was for difficult young
people, and, there again, it was a majority of boys, as opposed
to girls; so I think the behavioural problems and the personality
of girls at that time. And maybe what you are getting at is that
we are not monitoring, we are not scrutinising the issue effectively,
and, hopefully, when we get the statementing and get the whole
school policies and get the training in for teachers and get the
special educational needs co-ordinators in, then we can have a
new approach to this. But it is an historical position. I think
that, dare I say, it would be evident in all parts of the United
Kingdom.
87. Something you said in your opening statement,
about now 28 per cent of children in mainstream education, to
what extent is that because the special schools are full; if there
were places, would that still be the case, or would that figure
dramatically come down?
(Mr McFall) There is no doubt that the special
schools are full, and, again, it has been stated that the parents
in Northern Ireland have a different perception of special schools
than parents in Great Britain, that they see these schools in
a much more positive light, as a result of that. But I would like
to see us increasing that figure, over the long term, and there
is a number of ways that we can do that. For example, the issue
of special units in schools, and I visited a few last week on
that issue, and, if you like, it is a halfway house, having a
special unit in the school, for the opportunity for the children
to make their way into the school, mainstream, as a result of
that. So, hopefully, in the longer term, that figure will go up.
Also what I have discovered in my visits is that there is a lack
of pastoral care in quite a number of schools. One school I visited
last week, for medium, mild learning difficulties, had 150 children
and 60 teachers; now there are many pathways for these children,
getting in and out of schools, social work, community, medics,
and others, and there is a complexity to their lives, but there
is not the pastoral support there that there is in mainstream
schools. So there is a suggestion, hopefully I will maybe make
to you at the end, what hopefully would be an action plan, that
that would be one of the issues I would do, and the action plan
has come about as a result of your invitation, making us think
on these issues, to see and experience the issues ourselves and
then building on issues you said, but it was a complete lack,
and if we did have these pastoral arrangements then we would ease
the transition from these units into mainstream.
Mr Livingstone: Thank you very much,
Minister; thank you, Chairman.
Mr Hunter
88. I would like to press the Minister,
in a friendly and gentle manner, on the answer you just gave to
Mr Livingstone. We know the percentage of statemented children
in mainstream schooling is increasing, we also know, as Mr Livingstone
said, that special schools are at full capacity. What I want to
put to you is that maybe in this respect Belfast is not much different
from Basingstoke, that really we have a cost-led, Treasury-led
policy, that results in there being insufficient places in special
schools, and that we do not have a child-centred policy being
applied. To that sort of hostile line of approach, what would
you say?
(Mr McFall) First of all, I would not say it is
hostile, Mr Hunter, I think you are very gentle to me, indeed.
But I think, historically, that has been the case, I suppose we
could say that it is Treasury-led, but I have to pay tribute to
your Government, Mr Brooke, and to your position in the past,
in looking at special educational needs, because I mentioned earlier
that the number of children is now 28 per cent and that has doubled
in the past seven years, so a lot of effort has gone into that
issue in the past seven or eight years. And I would look at the
issue of parents and pressure groups. A month or two ago I met
the Royal National Institute for the Blind, and they were pressing
me for a strategic overview on this issue. To date, I have had
no great communication from pressure groups. I have visited schools,
and parents who have been on the Boards have spoken to me, along
with the teachers, and what that indicated to me was that there
is a consensual approach, largely, to this issue of special educational
needs in Northern Ireland, and, indeed, over the next three years,
and subject to the Comprehensive Spending Review, and we will
have to make announcements later on, so there is a conditional
element to it. Although, I have to say, the perceptions in the
education community that this money will be available, we are
talking about £3.6 million for a half of this year and £7
million for the next two years, on the special educational needs,
so I do not think it is a matter of lack of resources. I think
what has happened, and again I could maybe bring my own experience
to bear here, over the years, was that when statementing came
about for children, many years ago, authorities looked at statementing
as a threat and it was going to cost them money, and therefore
they did not statement children, and therefore there are maybe
two or three years, and even more. There was one terrible case
I heard, many years ago, where a young boy waited well over two
years to be statemented, and it had bad results for him and his
family, in a very, very personal sense. So we have moved on since
that, and I think we have moved on not in a partisan way but we
have moved on in a bipartisan way, politically, and also with
the community, in taking people along with us.
Mr Beggs
89. Good afternoon, and welcome, Minister.
In its original memorandum, the Department acknowledges concerns
around children with emotional and behavioural difficulties in
mainstream schools, and the Committee appreciates the range of
positive measures introduced by the Department through the School
Improvement Programme. However, the Boards expressed concern about
a small minority of children with emotional and behavioural difficulties
who required support from psychiatric and/or clinical psychology
services. This concern is also borne out by recent research on
suspension and expulsion procedures. In view of these ongoing
concerns about the under-resourcing of children with emotional
and behavioural difficulties, especially from the Health Boards
and Trusts, what action does the Minister intend taking?
(Mr McFall) Under our School Improvement Programme—thank
you, Mr Beggs, for that question—we have established what
we call multi-disciplinary behaviour support teams; we have also
given the resourcing for 200 additional short-term places for
pupil referral units, in our schools, and we are piloting education
other than at school provisions for mainly very disturbed and
those with severe behavioural problems at school, between age
14 and 16, and in that latter case we have outreach teachers taking
classes in different locations where the children are, maybe in
a health centre or some community centre where they are. So we
are focusing on these three areas, and I think that is very important
to remember. You mentioned the issue of psychologists, and there
is a lack of psychologists at the moment; indeed, I think we only
produce six psychologists a year, am I correct, Mr Manning, on
that?
(Mr Manning) Yes.
(Mr McFall) And we are short of 30 psychologists.
Now the British Psychological Society are recommending that the
length of time for the training programme at Queen's goes from
one year to three years, and that would make the situation worse;
so I think there is an issue here for Government, and it was highlighted
by your concerns in your Report. And what I intend to do about
that is to have discussions with Queen's University on that particular
issue to see what we can do, but also to have discussions with
Education and Library Boards. I met a young woman who recently
qualified in Psychology from Queen's University, she was a teacher
in a school, she had to give up her job in school, she wanted
to maintain her pension rights so she was paying her superannuation
as she went on, but she lost an awful lot of money, and the Education
and Library Board provided the tuition fees for the University
but she was at a loss financially as a result of that. Frankly,
I do not think that situation could continue, for the very good
reason that we have increasing legislation, we have the five stages
to this approach, but at the third stage the psychologists come
in, so there is going to be more work and responsibility for psychologists
rather than less. And, therefore, that will be an urgent issue
that I will be addressing, partly as a result of the Committee's
investigation into that.
90. I might come back to that point later
on. Thank you, Minister. Given that the Department supports inclusion,
would it not be more appropriate for the parents of children with
statements to be offered a choice as to whether they wish their
child to enter the transfer tests?
(Mr McFall) If parents want their children to
be in a transfer test then I would be the last to be against that,
so that is the issue, but, again, I have not detected that parents
have come along and asked for them to be in the transfer test;
but the parents' wishes predominate, and that is fine. I will
say to you, there is a background to this issue. I have looked
at some research undertaken by Professor McConkey, of Ulster University,
and he is a very esteemed Professor of Learning Disabilities at
Ulster University, and he has looked at the aspirations of young
people and the aspirations of their parents. And if I could say
that the parents' aspirations and their concerns for their young
people are conservative as opposed to the concerns of the young
people themselves, so there is a cultural issue there which is
to be promoted and which is to be discussed with parents. And
we can do that, as I mentioned to Mr Livingstone, when we are
looking at the issue of pastoral care, to bring that issue up,
but young people feel quite safe in the special education facilities
in Northern Ireland and the parents want them, so we have to recognise
that. But what would have been better in the past is ensuring
that the aspirations of young people are met when they leave the
school. For example, I was at Glen Veagh, the other day, and the
Principal, Mrs Murphy, told me that there were 15 places for children
at BIFHE, that higher education area, but there are problems there,
because these children are not recognised as being part of the
school, it is not a link course, so there is no money for them,
and it is a `by hook or by crook', and you know how good a campaigner
she is, she is keeping this particular issue going. Well I think
that is an issue for Government and it is one that we must tackle,
and therefore we can align the parents' concerns, and their conservative
approach to it, with the children's aspirations, so that young
children, when they leave schools like Larne Bay, where they get
a very sound basis for the future, can take it into training and
education facilities, which they have not done before.
91. Would the Department also look at the
possibility of providing some additional time allowance in the
transfer test itself for children deemed to have learning disabilities?
(Mr McFall) Can I come back to that one, but Paddy
wanted to comment.
(Mr Manning) Just on the transfer test, with statemented
pupils, certainly the view of the Department would be that there
has not been any great ground swell of opinion among parents seeking
this, mainly because when parents look at the issues within the
selection procedure they may feel that their children are disadvantaged
by actually taking the test. The present arrangement is that where
a pupil is statemented, because of some form of learning disability,
all it requires is an educational psychologist's report in order
to assess a suitable placement at post-primary level; those placements
are not part of the quota for grammar schools, so those are supernumerary
to that. If pupils with statements were to sit and take the transfer
test, and were to feel that, then they lose out in the system,
whereas they do not have to take the test because the psychologist
can assess whether they are suitable for placement or not. I think
it is a balance between parents wishing the normalisation aspect
of their children doing exactly what other children do, but many
parents who have looked at that have really felt that their child
might be disadvantaged by it. So it is something that needs to
be looked at, and certainly from our point of view there would
be no barrier to children taking the test, but parents need to
look very closely at whether it would be to their advantage to
do so.
92. Do parents have the information to enable
them to make the decision?
(Mr McFall) I think the Code of Practice will
certainly help in that issue.
(Mr Manning) Parents would have that information
from schools and from the psychologists, because the child is
statemented within the primary school, the parent has opportunities
to meet with the educational psychologist and the school principal
and the special needs co-ordinator, who all have that information.
I have been approached, as an inspector, by a number of parents,
who asked would it not be possible for their child to do the selection
procedure, and when I pointed out the advantages of the present
system they realised their child was not being disadvantaged at
all; and those places which are presently supernumerary would
be lost if the child were to sit the selection procedure along
with their peer group. The other thing about additional time,
additional time is allowed for GCSE and A-levels, for pupils with
specific learning problems, but those are actually examinations;
the selection procedure is a selection procedure, it is not a
test, it is not an examination.
(Mr McFall) Could I add to that, Paddy, on that,
because that is an important point, politically, Mr Beggs, in
terms of time allowance, because I have been asked about this,
particularly by some in the media. But the selection is a test
against one's cohort, whereas the A-levels and GCSEs, and others,
that is an absolute test, so allowance can be taken in for people
at A-levels, but when you have a cohort test then it is very,
very difficult to do that. The present arrangements are that grammar
schools and others should take consideration of the individual's
abilities or disabilities, thereafter going into school, but not
before, because it is a cohort test. And I would not like, as
Education Minister, to delve into the complexities of the present
educational system, and I look forward to my successor, as Minister
in the Assembly, dealing with that particular issue, because it
is an extremely complex and controversial issue. But one thing
I will take up, as a result of the type of question I have had,
is the issue of integration and statemented pupils going into
mainstream; at the moment we have league tables and statemented
children are included in these league tables, so what is happening
is that there is a disincentive for the schools to take these
statemented children. So one of the points that I want to take
up, as a result of this today, is to look at that issue, so that
statemented children are not disadvantaged, and therefore we can
increase the number of statemented children in mainstream schools.
Chairman
93. You said, Minister, it was a complex
and controversial subject, but I will still ask the question to
see what answer I get. My understanding is that only 10 per cent
of young people of secondary school age with statements who are
in mainstream education attend grammar schools; this would suggest
that the selection process might be counter to the inclusive policy
that the Government is putting forward. Can you suggest ways in
which those contrasting approaches could be reconciled?
(Mr McFall) My own personal viewpoint in this,
Mr Brooke, and it largely is anecdotal, is that it does run counter
to that issue, and therefore we have to look at more imaginative
ways to do that. As you know, a lot of this work is done at Board
level, we have a five-Board, Senior Education Officer group looking
at these strategic issues, and I think this is one of the issues
which they will have to look at. And, as I mentioned in my response
to Mr Beggs, if we have statemented children who have been included
in the league tables, naturally heads and others want their schools
to get the highest results possible, and if the statemented children
will bring down that result then it is going to dilute that for
them. So if we could look at a way where the Boards and others
keep these children out of the league table tests then we are
not affecting that school's results, whilst maintaining the best
quality for the statemented children, and I think that that is
one move, and I will certainly be taking that up as a result of
the Committee's inquiry.
Mr McWalter
94. During this inquiry, I have been particularly
concerned and pursuing questions about quite large variations
between the practices of the different Boards, and you just mentioned,
in fact, that there was a committee of the five Boards getting
together to start co-ordinating practices. What sort of commitment
for central direction is there, particularly bearing in mind that
I believe there are very wide variations, there has been a lack
of any kind of central co-ordinating strength, and what that has
led to has been the denial, in some areas, of quite fundamental
rights for people who have got special educational needs?
(Mr McFall) I take your point very much in that.
You talk about the denial of rights; the introduction to my answer
is a bit tangential, but there has been pressure on us for the
statementing process to be simplified, and I agree with that particular
issue, but there have been a number of points of view put to me
by professionals over the past few weeks which would simplify
it to the extent that perhaps the parental rights are not safeguarded,
and that the thrust of legislation over the past seven or eight
years has been to safeguard that right, and I would be on that
side. So I would not go down that way. But, historically, there
have been structural and organisational differences between the
Boards, and I think that came out in the evidence of the Boards
to you when they appeared, in their two visits; but parents still
have the right to expect that any differences in practice will
be minor, so each child's needs must be properly identified, regardless
of the home area. Now the Audit report emphasised the need for
consistency between Boards, and we are looking in particular for
improvements in arrangements to improve the accountability in
the making of many full comparisons between and within Boards.
And I mentioned earlier, with the establishment of the senior
educational committee looking at this issue, that will be reporting
directly to the Department, so we will be able to get the recommendations
of that committee and perhaps put that into place. One view that
was put to me by one group is that schools should delineate the
special educational needs budget, because that increases the element
of accountability, and they should also, in their annual reports,
detail what they have done with issues such as that. But I would
hope that the committee that we have set up with the Senior Education
Officers will be able to look at best practices and adopt, between
Boards, this issue of best practice. And I am also going to consider
whether the Code of Practice might usefully include more prescriptive
criteria on assessment and statementing, which all Boards would
have to adopt, and I will be asking the committee to look at that.
95. You mentioned earlier that there is
a distinct lack of educational psychologists, even though, in
fact, large numbers of students would like to study psychology;
there is an interesting problem about why, nevertheless, we do
not get a sufficient number of trained people. But is it the case
that one reason for these variations might be that there are certain
conditions which were not recognised in the past, particularly
if it was like attention deficit disorder, which admit of quite
significant differences in diagnosis, depending on the training
and background and culture of the psychologists who are making
these decisions?
(Mr McFall) Mr McWalter, I have no doubt that
that is the case, that a lot of conditions have gone unrecognised
in the past, and Mr Livingstone makes a point about the behavioural
problems and the surplus of males, maybe it is because of the
overt behaviour of disorders that males have been recognised and
insufficient females have been recognised for the problems they
have, and we have had the issue of autism and other communication
and learning difficulties put about. So I would imagine that by
increasing the supply of psychologists, as we hope to do, what
we may be doing there for ourselves is increasing the problems
that we unearth. But I think that is a very important issue, because
we have had a lack, to put it at its mildest, maybe of a professional
approach to this issue in the past. I speak as a former school-teacher,
where the responsibility for determining maybe behavioural problems
was put on a junior teacher level; that is why we are going to
have the special educational needs co-ordinators to look at this
issue, but we must have training for them and we must make sure
that it is going to be at a senior management level. That is why
I want to see the special educational needs being a senior management
priority, so that it becomes a whole school responsibility and
the philosophy of the special educational needs is imbued in the
whole school. But we have got the co-ordinators there, we have
got the inter-Board contacts there, and if we get the increasing
number of psychologists then we have the opportunity to be more
sophisticated in our approach to this issue. But, the core of
your question, it is 100 per cent correct.
96. My colleague mentioned earlier that
in some ways what obtains in Basingstoke obtains in Belfast; are
you really saying that the Government's commitment to, say, the
training of speech therapists, for instance, to take one example
of the kind of specialisms that are involved, will be such that,
within a reasonable timescale, and I would quite like to know
what the timescale is, the difficulties in the whole of the United
Kingdom, in those matters you envisage its solution?
(Mr McFall) Can I say that the resources that
we have committed to this over the next three years I believe,
in terms of these resources, the Code of Practice has not been
matched in England and Wales, so in Northern Ireland, I believe
I am correct in that, we are in the vanguard in that particular
area.
97. It is Belfast today and Basingstoke
tomorrow?
(Mr McFall) The problems are the same, it is the
way of tackling it, and, dare I say, we can learn from each other
on these particular issues. But the resources that we have given
are generally considered to be generous, they are considered to
be generous for the next few years, and the opportunity for being
flexible with these resources is very, very important. In other
words, I will want to be prescriptive from DENI, so that Boards
and others follow issues, I want it to be a bottom-up issue so
that what we consider are the priorities we can turn our attention
to, and it is with that in mind that these resources are being
made available in the next few years.
98. So, in conclusion, the difficulty that
we had getting out of the Department the problems about the proportion
of statemented children in school and the proportion that were
entitled to free school meals, that you mentioned earlier, that,
that kind of monitoring problem, you see that the new resources
will be able not only to give us the information that this Committee
has been looking for but also that the new resources will allow
the injection of energy at the centre to be distributed across
Boards in a way which will really make a very appreciable difference
to these areas?
(Mr McFall) I have to be fair to my Department,
and you would not expect otherwise. That information is held at
Board level and, as has been mentioned previously, the disparities
between the Boards in some cases can be quite considerable, so
the need for cohesion and commonality in special educational needs
is very important. But, some of the points you mention there,
yes, in the longer term, hopefully, we will look at these issues.
Chairman
99. Yours will not be the first Government,
Minister, where a question might be answered "This information
is not provided", or accumulated, or collected, "centrally"?
(Mr McFall) I have already done it.
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