Examination of witness (Questions 89 -
99)
WEDNESDAY 10 FEBRUARY 1999
MRS RAY
MICHIE, MP
Chairman
89. Can I thank you for coming before us,
as part of our inquiry into the Procedural Consequences of Devolution.
Clearly, Scotland is a very important part of the Union of the
United Kingdom, and we feel that you, as a Chairman of the Scottish
Grand Committee, could shed some light as to how you feel that
devolution, as proposed, will impact upon the United Kingdom Parliament
and the relationship between the United Kingdom Parliament and,
of course, the new Scottish Parliament. Mrs Michie, the Government
has indicated that procedural change here at Westminster, which
you are getting to know very well, should, and I quote the Government
and the Leader of the House: "evolve in the light of experience
and not be made before the devolved assemblies start to work."
As a Scottish Member of Parliament, and chairing the Scottish
Grand Committee, do you agree with that approach and that view?
(Mrs Michie) Can I, first of all, say that I am
grateful to you, Mr Chairman, for allowing me——
90. And can I say that I have asked the
first question, but that will not prevent you from delivering,
as I know you would like to do so, an opening statement, but perhaps
that gives you an introduction as to how you might like to conduct
this?
(Mrs Michie) It does, I think, because I do not
agree with that statement that you have made, or what the Government
has made, but I am grateful to you for giving me the opportunity
to give evidence, and to the Procedure Committee, as someone,
yes, who has chaired the Scottish Grand Committee. I am not the
only Chairman of that Committee, I have chaired others, but I
hope that I am also giving evidence as an ordinary backbencher,
if I may, because I do have some ideas of my own. But I agree
with the points made by my colleague, Jim Wallace, on behalf of
the Scottish Liberal Democrats, and I think he gave you a submission
towards the end of last year. In my view, I think it will no longer
be necessary to have, for example, Scottish Questions, reserved
matters will be dealt with by UK Ministers, and I do not think
it will even be necessary to question the Secretary of State for
Scotland, I am not sure what he, or she, will be doing and it
has long been our policy that that post should be abolished. I
do not see a role for the Scottish Grand Committee or the Scottish
Affairs Select Committee, any reserved matters of particular interest
to the Scottish Parliament, or which impact on Scotland, would,
I believe, be dealt with by departmental Select Committees. And
if the Scottish Grand Committee did remain then I do not think
it should ever again sit in Scotland, unless by the express invitation
of the Scottish Parliament. I am particularly interested, if I
may say so, in this West Lothian question, and I am aware of the
increasing concern among English MPs, of all parties, that Scottish
MPs could still vote on purely English matters. I have considerable
sympathy with their point of view, having for years been on the
receiving end of English MPs, or other MPs in the United Kingdom,
pushing through legislation on purely Scottish matters, such as
our separate legal system, our separate education system, in the
face of the majority of Scottish MPs, so I very much understand
what English MPs may be feeling at this time. Well, of course,
this has gone on for nearly 300 years, and it has not started
for them yet. The answer may well be, I know, an English Grand
Committee, but I really think it would have to have voting rights.
I know that Mr Atkinson thought that an English Grand Committee
of 500 Members would be difficult to handle, but I cannot see
why that would be the case, they would surely meet in the Chamber,
and, if it were the Speaker, or the Chairman, I am sure would
handle them very well. I can see though that there could be problems
for a Government if it had a small majority, but one could argue
that that would be democracy. Of course, in the end, as far as
I am concerned, the answer is to move towards a federal United
Kingdom, with home rule all round, as Gladstone tried to introduce
many years ago. I can understand that, in England, they may well
want to move to regional government, but I think that that, in
the end, is the way the United Kingdom must go.
91. Thank you very much. You have made an
excellent and, if I may say, very direct and specific opening
statement. Do you speak as a Chairman of the Scottish Grand Committee,
chairing that Committee, or are you speaking more as a backbencher,
and you said you were speaking in various capacities: can I just
clarify that with you?
(Mrs Michie) I am not representing the Scottish
Grand Committee, but I understood that you perhaps wanted some
evidence from me, from my experience as a Chair of the Scottish
Grand Committee.
92. As long as that is absolutely clear?
(Mrs Michie) Yes; but then, as I did say, I do
have, as you heard, perhaps, views of my own, or quite close to
my Party, as a backbencher.
Chairman: Mrs Michie,
you have very strong views. Lorna Fitzsimons.
Lorna Fitzsimons
93. But also this Committee is asking, as
it has to do, the actual institution of the Grand Committee, and
we asked the Grand Committee, so could you actually put that representative
hat on and actually say what the collective view of the Grand
Committee, as currently constituted, is, if it has one?
(Mrs Michie) It has not one; as far as I am aware,
the Scottish Grand Committee has never discussed the matter.
Chairman
94. We are grateful for that. Are you prepared
to expand on your, again, very direct, brief response to the question
that I opened up with to you, as, you do not, obviously, agree
with the Government's approach on this. Are you saying that your
approach is very much as you have outlined, and that is that the
existing structures of the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs
and the Scottish Grand Committee should disappear?
(Mrs Michie) Yes.
95. Be withdrawn?
(Mrs Michie) Yes.
96. Cease?
(Mrs Michie) Yes.
97. And that, if there is a Scottish Grand
Committee, for perhaps macro debate, that should meet here and
not in Edinburgh?
(Mrs Michie) That is correct.
98. Well, can I put another question to
you, seeking to draw you out. Whatever approach to procedural
reform is taken, presumably, some forms of change will be more
urgent than others, here, in the United Kingdom Parliament, at
Westminster; what do you think will need addressing between now
and when the actual Parliament in Holyrood begins to operate,
what, therefore, needs to be dealt with and addressed by this
Committee, on behalf of the House, prior to devolution really
getting under way?
(Mrs Michie) The elections are on 6 May, the Parliament
starts on 1 July, and I think that the important thing to address
is the question of Scottish Questions in the House, and I believe
that they will no longer be necessary, because I cannot imagine
what could be asked of the Secretary of State for Scotland, who
no longer has responsibility for all the matters that have been
devolved to the Scottish Parliament.
99. Can I then ask you the question, what
role do you see for the Scottish MP, representative of his, or
her, constituency in Scotland, in the Westminster Parliament?
(Mrs Michie) They have a considerable role, because
if you look at the Act there are about, I think, 22 pages of reserved
powers, and so they will constantly have to be looking at that;
and the most important thing is that the Barnett Formula, as I
understand it, is to continue, that the money for the Scottish
Parliament will be coming from Westminster, from here, and they
have a role in looking at that sort of thing as well, as well
as all these reserved powers.
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