Examination of witness
(Questions 260 - 271)
TUESDAY 2 MARCH 1999
THE RT
HON MARGARET
BECKETT, MP
260. I am very happy to have your considered
thoughts rather than immediate thoughts. It does seem to me that
whilst a Scottish constituent might be able to look at this and
say actually now he has two people he can go and badger to do
something on his behalf, the difference in effect would be this:
the representations made by the member of the Scottish Parliament
would be representations made by a member of the body which had
responsibility for the matter, whereas representations made by
a member of the House of Commons would now no longer be made by
a member who had that responsibility. In that sense part of the
role of a member of this House, representative function, has been
taken away.
(Margaret Beckett) I see all of this, to be honest,
to be a matter of shades. We are invited to and we do become engaged
in discussion with a whole plethora of bodies with whom, strictly
speaking, we have no relationship, over whom we exercise no responsibility
and who are perfectly free to tell us to push off when we invite
them to act on behalf of our constituents. Mostly they do not,
though, and that is not because they see us as a specific representative
of that person, it is because of the role of Parliament itself
and the prestige Parliament has developed over the years and the
fact that this is where ultimately the framework of the rules
within which we all live and operate is actually set. I take your
point entirely. I cannot give you a better answer than that though.
I am not sure whether there is one, to be honest.
Chairman
261. How do you perceive that your Government,
that is a Government of the United Kingdom, will involve ministers
in the Scottish Parliament in matters relating to, for instance,
the European Union when there may be a dual role?
(Margaret Beckett) The primary responsibility
with regard to negotiation with the European Union remains with
the UK Government. What I would anticipate is that there will
be a cooperative and fruitful relationship and exchange of information,
advice and concerns.
262. You do not perceive any structures
at this stage.
(Margaret Beckett) There may well be some perhaps
informal structures which will grow up. There are bound to be
in effect but it will be a matter of making sure that all the
proper interests are heard and taken into account in formulating
the overall negotiating stance the United Kingdom takes.
263. Really your memorandum in saying "by
evolution" really meant that.
(Margaret Beckett) Very much so.
264. At this stage we are going to learn
by experience.
(Margaret Beckett) Other governments have not
dissimilar experiences and draw on them.
Mr Syms
265. Britain's experience of devolution
principally this century has been Stormont. The Unionist majority
there used pretty much to replicate legislation which was introduced
by both Conservative and Labour Governments except on one or two
exceptional matters where they seemed to take a slightly different
view. At Westminster the Members of Parliament for Northern Ireland
by and large took a self-denying ordinance not to vote on many
domestic matters, which started to break down in 1964 over steel
nationalisation; there was a bit of a row. The current plans for
devolution are predicated to a large extent on everybody cooperating
and working together. Do you think there ought to be some conventions
between the United Kingdom Parliament and the Scottish Parliament
and the Welsh Assembly about criticising members of other bodies
or authorities? It is quite likely since the electoral cycle is
different that one might end up with a separatist SNP administration
north of the border with a different agenda and with members representing
constituencies in this House who may be sharing a constituency
with members of a different political persuasion north of the
border. That might in itself lead to the dynamic of people chucking
bricks at each other. Do you think it might be wise to foresee
that prospect, the prospect of perhaps rows and criticisms and
perhaps using it as a platform or do you not think in practical
political terms that is at all possible and we just have to live
with what the electorate produce?
(Margaret Beckett) I would not like to see us
so anticipating it that we encourage it. In our evidence, we have
suggested that perhaps this Committee might consider whether there
are procedures we should adopt from the beginning, something like
the kind of relationship that exists between the House of Lords
and ourselves, of generally observing certain degrees of common
courtesy and whether there might be merit in adopting perhaps
slightly more formally a similar approach with regard to the devolved
bodies. That is a matter for this Committee but it might be helpful,
because irrespective of what is the political complexion of those
who are elected to the devolved bodies, it can only make for better
governance if those who are charged with different responsibilities
seek to work together rather than to work against each other.
266. As you know, on the floor of the House
if you are going to criticise another member it is a courtesy
to let the other member know so they can be within the Chamber.
What I fear is that there will be members jumping up and down
from a particular constituency in Scotland criticising a member
of another body and one may not be able to have that right of
reply and could waste a considerable amount of time with people
making speeches criticising some individual who is some hundreds
of miles away making speeches criticising another individual down
here. I do think perhaps some kind of code ... It would almost
have to be done between the Speaker here and the Presiding Officer
north of the border. Both would have to have a certain code of
conduct. If a matter were perhaps raised here, which did stray
into devolved responsibility, then perhaps there ought to be a
convention that the Speaker, if she or he allowed that to be raised
here, would tip off the Presiding Officer north of the border
that this issue was coming up so they would not read about it
first in the press, or vice-versa, so there was some kind of communication
between both, otherwise people would be sitting in the tea room
in Holyrood or wherever reading about these dreadful people down
in London saying this and may have the press reports but not what
was actually said. We know that press reports and what is said
are sometimes a little different.
(Margaret Beckett) Indeed I am very conscious
of that. That is a very interesting point. I was thinking as you
began your remarks that this is very much something which seems
to be a matter for the Chair but working on the basis of an agreed
code of conduct or agreed criteria. The suggestion you make is
an interesting one as to the way in which these relationships
might develop.
Chairman
267. Bearing in mind the matter that Robert
Syms quite legitimately raised I think it is an important
one do you think, bearing in mind the advances which have
been made in electronic communication, it would be appropriate
in this Palace of Westminster to have a room in which there would
be an ongoing live feed of television showing what was going on
in the Scottish Parliament, what was going on in the Welsh Assembly
and what was going on in the Northern Ireland Assembly and perhaps
duplicating that north of the border, that the Scottish Parliament
might want to know what is going on in the United Kingdom Parliament?
Do you think that would be a good move?
(Margaret Beckett) It is a very interesting idea.
Anything which involves the necessity to find fresh accommodation
is always something in which I step with considerable caution
because I know that the committees of this House who deal with
these matters have a nightmarish time as it is trying to find
space for all the things we want to do. Certainly it is a very
interesting point that our own methods of work and our own capacity,
the way in which we do our job, is already affected by that kind
of potential electronic support. It is a most interesting idea.
Presumably you would require to have one for each of the devolved
bodies because otherwise it would be chaos with different people
trying to watch different things.
Mr Gardiner
268. A parliamentary channel.
(Margaret Beckett) Indeed.
Chairman
269. Would you think this might be a proposal
which we might put to the Broadcasting Committee of this House?
Would it be appropriate for the Order Paper of the Scottish Parliament
and the two assemblies in Wales and Northern Ireland to be made
available to members of this House? I am seeking to be helpful
and constructive.
(Margaret Beckett) There is certainly merit in
that kind of courteous exchange. It would foster the sort of relationship
that Mr Syms was discussing. It may well be. My only slight hesitation
at this moment is that these are proposals which perhaps ought
to be aired with those devolved bodies as they come into being.
Certainly that is exactly the kind of practical networking which
might work well in the future.
Mr Syms
270. Just to pick up from the point about
the TV link, video conferencing is something which is used pretty
widely these days. I know there have been examples between Scottish
Office and here and the Welsh Office and here. One wonders whether
or not perhaps that facility ought to be provided within this
House so that Scottish members could talk to other members who
represent perhaps the same area or maybe our whips can talk to
the whips up there or vice-versa. I rather suspect that people
spend time on telephones but I do think perhaps a face to face
means of communication might be worth it so that people could
book in to talk to their particular colleagues.
(Margaret Beckett) That is a very interesting
point and it is perhaps something which ought to be raised with
the Information Committee because it actually has much wider application.
This brings it into particular focus but it is a mechanism which
we perhaps tend not to think about to the degree that we should.
I am sure that too has considerable implications both for the
facilities and for the use of rooms in this place. I am sure it
ought to be pursued.
Chairman
271. Before we move on to financial procedure
may I just ask you one final question in respect of devolution.
We have been putting questions to you, grilling you as it were.
Are there any matters you would like to mention to us which you
would ask us to look at in respect of devolution and its impact
upon the House of Commons in building up and producing our report?
Are there any areas where you believe that modest changes can
be made which would ease the passage of devolution and make devolution
a more successful development?
(Margaret Beckett) Most of the issues which I
might have thought of raising are issues on which we have already
touched. The only other thing I would think might be useful, and
you may already have this in mind, is that it will be very important,
particularly if we do proceed as I hope we do on an evolutionary
path, that the changes which are made, the way things develop
is kept under review, that it is monitored and re-assessed as
we go along. That is very much the kind of role that perhaps this
Committee and perhaps others might well play.
Chairman: One point of clarification.
When we were talking about questions earlier on and what you had
said in your particular memorandum to the Committee, I read that
the Government expects that ministers relating to Scotland, Wales
and Northern Ireland, will continue to answer oral questions in
the House once very four weeks. They would welcome the views of
the Procedure Committee on whether the amount of time allocated
for each oral questions should be reduced once the new legislatures
are functioning. In the case of Scotland in particular it is difficult
to imagine that the reduced responsibilities of the Secretary
of State will generate enough questions for 40 minutes on the
floor. Given the continuing responsibilities for Northern Ireland
and Wales, it may make sense that their 25-minute question periods
remain unaltered. It is important to have that on record today.
Thank you for dealing with devolution.
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