Examination of witnesses (Questions 80
- 99)
WEDNESDAY 14 APRIL 1999
MR GORDON
HEXTALL, MR
ALAN BURNHAM,
and DR E ANNE
BRAIDWOOD
80. That is a good thing from your point
of view?
(Mr Hextall) I think so. The fact is, that we
have been able to confirm people who were in temporary posts.
My judgement is, that if the job is going to be there for a year
or more, the post needs to be advertised so people have been able
to apply and they have and they have been promoted at every level
from AA through to SEO.
81. You started your introduction by saying
that new claims are as high or higher than in the 1960s and they
reduced only in relation to the 1990s.
(Mr Hextall) They are as high now as they were
in 1988 and at any time prior to that.
82. So would you like to comment on what
effect you think further staff reductions would have or do you
feel there is a way of reducing staff and, as you say, the work
continues and maybe different patterns of delivery would have
to be developed? Could you comment on what those patterns might
be?
(Mr Hextall) I am comfortable that if the workloads
decline gradually and steadily as the statisticians forecast,
so I am a bit dependent on that, then we can contain any necessary
staffing reductions within normal wastage rates. I would hope
to be able to maintain people's enthusiasm and morale and commitment
during that process.
83. If you had to reduce staff beyond normal
wastage can you identify other patterns of service delivery that
would still meet the quality of service that one would want to
have?
(Mr Hextall) The other patterns that might be
affected—I mentioned earlier on that we would be looking
at the feasibility of people taking claims over the telephone
so that could change the pattern of working and we need to understand
what that was likely to be before we get into it, but I really
seriously believe that we can maintain the staffing within wastage
rates. I am not looking for any special exercises of any kind.
Ms Buck
84. We have heard a lot about the motivation
and commitment of the staff. Why then have you the worst sickness
rate in the public sector?
(Mr Hextall) I think that the graph that I showed
of the new claims that arose in the early 1990s was at the same
time that the Agency was formed and was at the same time as computerisation
was introduced for the first time into the Agency. I was not here
and I do not know but I am speculating that that series of changes
and pressures led to the increase in the staff absence rate because
if you look back beyond that period it was lower and then it shot
up in relation to this graph. The graph of sickness absence over
the Agency reflects the graph of new claims coming in. Whilst
it was the worse in the public sector in the years that were reported
for in the last two years it has been reducing and we are committed
to reducing it. It is in the business plan as one of our targets.
85. In 1998 you are saying there has been
a significant improvement and you are now not worst?
(Mr Hextall) I do not know whether we are worst
or not. I know we have got significant improvements over previous
years and month on month since last August we have improved over
the previous year
86. What you are saying about experience
it seems to me—and I am very happy for you to expand on
that—is that those sickness rates are clearly associated
with a very demoralised staff and that tends to be what happens.
The experiences that you have described are not particularly specific
to the war pensions area, are they? The DSS as a whole and much
of the public sector as a whole in the early 1990s went through
many of those changes?
(Mr Hextall) I do not think I have come across
any other organisation that experienced an increase in the amount
of work to the extent of this organisation. Literally going from
20,000 claims to 150,000 claims a year at the same time as an
Agency was being set up, new management structures were being
put in place and new computer systems were being introduced and
there were problems with the new computer system in the early
days which took some time to resolve. I do recognise the situation——
87. That surge peaked from 1992-93 and still
by 1997 you were twice the private sector average of staff absences
and the highest in the public sector and half as much again as
the DSS average five years later. I can understand exactly why
that combination of factors would have an effect on staff morale
and staff sickness. It worries me a little bit that that was still
the prevailing pattern five years after those conditions.
(Mr Hextall) It was not five years afterwards
because the computerisation finished in 1995 and the change I
was just describing was during 1997-98 where we had to lose 200
staff to be able to match the workloads. So apart from the great
increase in pressure of work arising from the influx of new claims
there was a different kind of pressure in reducing staffing to
match the workload as the workload fell off. That was another
pressure that continued right up to last April.
88. You are now saying there are month on
month reductions. Are they greater than the reductions that are
being achieved in line with public service targets across the
board?
(Mr Hextall) In our business plan we are committing
ourselves to a higher percentage reduction of sickness than any
other DSS Agency. That is right because we have got a higher amount
of sickness absence so I understand that.
89. Can you talk through what the strategies
are other than the fact that the crises are in the past? What
strategies are you adopting?
(Mr Hextall) About 12 months ago concurrently
with the staffing reductions to match the workloads we conducted
a staff attitude survey which produced a lot of valuable and good
information for me because people were proud to work in the Agency
and committed to it so there were lots of good things that came
out of that staff attitude survey. There were also things which
I recognise were contributing to low morale because there is a
perception around that people were not able to make a difference
to the way that the work was conducted and a fairly high proportion
saw to develop their careers they needed to do something else
and have a change of job. It identified areas where people perceived
they were blocked or trapped into their current role. There have
been a lot of opportunities opened up for people to move around
and have new training and development opportunities. We have conducted
an autumn school for 40 junior staff and a spring school, where
we get in speakers from outside and high profile internal speakers
and they are given development opportunities. We conducted a customer
service training programme for all of our staff which was a one-day
programme which whilst it was focusing on customer service I found
of great use. There was a session as part of this day where people
were invited to write down on a yellow `Post-It' notice, the obstacles
they saw to them delivering good customer service and they were
then able to anonymously post these. And we have acted on them.
A number of things really. I place a great amount of store by
leadership and that also features in our business plan because
I think during periods of change like this we need leaders rather
than managers. We do need managers as well but we really need
leaders and the kind of leadership qualities I am espousing are
people who get out and about sit and talk to staff and listen
and then act on what they are hearing. That has paid off from
the feedback I am getting from staff. Those are the kind of things
we have put in place. We have appointed a liaison officer specifically
to look at sickness absence because when we examined the profile
it is not people taking the odd day off, it is not short-term
uncertificated sick absence, it is certificated long-term sickness
absence.
90. You have not got a different staff profile?
(Mr Hextall) Slightly older and if you look at
the percentage where the sickness absence rises it is in people
who are over 50. It is running at something like ten per cent
whereas it is running at four per cent in every other ten year
age category. So there is a difference in age, yes, slightly.
But, for the people who have been off on long-term sickness I
perceive in talking to some of them that they feel there is a
difficulty in coming back to work, it is a big obstacle to overcome,
so the purpose in appointing a liaison officer is to be able to
encourage people to come back on a part-time basis to a non-pressured
job. It is initiatives like that that we put in place.
91. Picking up from the last question that
Debra asked you, are you both through the policy on management
of sickness and on retirement resisting any temptation to try
and ease out staff on long-term sickness possibly through the
early retirement route? You are committed to trying to tackle
those barriers to getting people to reduce their sick leave and
stay in employment rather than have these people leave the organisation.
(Mr Hextall) Yes. If they can come back and do
a valuable job, even if it is not the same job at the same level,
that has got to be better than not being there at all.
Chairman
92. That is a very important exchange. It
would help colleagues if you could try and quantify some of these
things in terms of percentages. Would it be possible to get a
note from you looking at the actual number of days lost, you were
giving some quite important steps that you were taking, to put
that together in a little letter? If we got some actual quantified
numbers of the days lost we can try and anticipate some of the
trends and if we attach that to the report we may or may not do
and put that in the public domain I think that would reassure
people that that was something that you are actively attending
to.
(Mr Hextall) I have got that kind of information.
I also accept that it is out of date.[3]
93. Data is always out of date. If you could
put together some actual figures on some of these percentages
for us that would be extremely helpful.
(Mr Hextall) So when the next annual report from
the OHSE comes out it will be a year and a half out of date and
it will still show us in a bad light potentially.
Chairman: That is
understood. Could I turn to the whole question of public policy
and war pensions policy? Andrew Dismore has got some special expertise
on this issue, as you may have worked out for yourself, and has
got some questions in that area. Andrew?
Mr Dismore
94. Something has always puzzled me about
the way the scheme works and that is why officers and other ranks
are treated differently within the scheme. Is there a logical
reason for it or is it simply the class system continuing within
the War Pensions Agency?
(Dr Braidwood) I ought to take some information
on this but my understanding is that it is an historical accident
largely. Because this scheme, which is currently enshrined in
the 1983 legislation, actually goes back to 1917 and it purely
reflected the time and mores in which it came alive. I am afraid
I cannot give you a more detailed answer than that although I
would be happy to look into it.
95. Are there any thoughts about having
it changed or looked at to break down the distinction between
the way those two cases are treated?
(Mr Hextall) I mentioned earlier the constitution
of the appeal tribunal. We are certainly concerned that it causes
inefficiency in administering the appeal tribunal where you have
to differentiate between the two and it would make it much easier
and speed the process up if you just had one.
96. For example, the rate of benefit is
talked about in weekly terms for other ranks and annual payment
for officers. It all seems rather arcane or archaic.
(Mr Hextall) I agree.
Dr Naysmith: Is there
any evidence that claims are treated more quickly if you were
an officer in service?
Mr Dismore
97. That was the next question.
(Mr Hextall) I understand the question but I think
the answer is no. A claim is a claim as far as our process is
concerned.
Dr Naysmith
98. There is not a separate section?
(Mr Hextall) No.
Chairman
99. That is an absolutely crucial question.
You are facing a Prior Options Policy Review and looking at the
next five years and you have just admitted there that this is
an arcane process. Should you not be using this opportunity to
shout from the roof tops that this is a key time to get all this
sorted with new-look, consolidated legislation? I do not get any
sense that you have got the enthusiasm to do that.
(Mr Hextall) I am very happy to take this issue
up with our policy people and explore why we are in the position
we are. If this is part of legislation I suspect we will be stuck
with it until the next opportunity to change it.
3 Note by Witness: Reference to "out of
date" data is the OHSE data on sickness absences for Government
Departments which is published some two years after it has been
collated (ie 1996 data published in 1998). Meaning was supposed
to be, it will take some time before the OHSE published data reflects
our current position. Back
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