Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1
- 19)
MONDAY 26 APRIL 1999
MR CHRIS
BARNHAM, MR
LEE BROWN,
MS SUE
DUNCAN AND
MR JEREMY
GROOMBRIDGE
Chairman
1. Can I declare the public proceedings open
and start by apologising to our witnesses this afternoon? We have
had some difficulties getting a joint quorum but we are going
to proceed in any case because we have a quorum of the Social
Security Committee. We can proceed under that guise, although
it gives us a bit of difficulty with Yvette and John having to
sit this out really as observers. So if they adopt a strong silent
pose from the side, there is nothing nefarious about that, it
keeps us technically in order. Can I welcome you all? I do not
know if Jeremy or Lee want to make an opening statement of any
kind. It might be helpful, even if we got an idea or a reminder
of which areas of the issue you are all particularly interested
in, just by way of scene setting. Then I want to go on as soon
as I can to some general design issues and a series of questions
which the Committee are interested in. Lee or Jeremy, why do not
one of the two of you start with just introducing the team?
(Mr Brown) I will introduce everybody.
I am Lee Brown, Project Director. Chris Barnham, on my right,
is from DfEE. Jeremy Groombridge, on my left, is from the DSS,
both of whom lead on policy. Sue Duncan, on my far left, from
analytical services in the DSS, is here to answer questions on
evaluation.
2. Right. That is very kind. You have very helpfully
done a memorandum for us which focused our minds, if you forgive
the pun, on Work-focused Gateways. Can I start with a general
question and, Lee, just farm the questions out and please, witnesses,
feel free to pitch in as you wish. There has been a lot of public
relations, some might say hype, around the rhetoric of all of
this. Do you as a professional team supporting Ministers believe
that the end result is going to measure up to the volume of rhetoric
that we have heard in the fullness of time?
(Mr Brown) Yes, we do. We are designing
and carrying out this implementation to allow that. What we are
doing in the design is building on previous experience and current
experience around the New Deal personal advisers and advisory
services of the Benefit Agency and other DSS agencies that have
been developing. We are learning from these how to make the service
better for customers and we are learning from those how to reattach
people to the labour market who have been detached from it. I
think, based on the experiences of New Deal and modern service
in the DSS, we are in a position to say that we will put something
in place which over time will produce better results.
3. This is radical reform? This is something
step-wise, this is not just another relaunch as Governments do
from time to time, they make the best, obviously, of what it is
they are proposing. You think this is something that is qualitatively
different?
(Mr Brown) It will be qualitatively different.
The previous experiments and programmes and measures that I mentioned
have been focused on particular parts of the benefit and labour
market systems: the New Deal, when people have reached particular
stages of unemployment or when people have a particular characteristic
and active modern service looking at the beginnings at the front
end of the claims for particular clients. This is about the radical
reform and the redesign of the whole of the front end of the claims
process so that we do bring together the labour market elements,
the labour market focus, with benefits being used in particular
ways to encourage people to reattach themselves to the labour
market.
4. Why have Benefit Agency district boundaries
been used for the pilot areas? I am tempted to ask you what lessons
you learn in Dunoon can be translated to a situation in Paisley?
The Clyde Coast Benefit area has got a lot of the seaside and
a lot of industrial Glasgow. How does it make sense to have a
pilot over such a huge area? Why did you not look at local authority
or indeed Employment Service areas to carry the pilot study boundaries?
(Ms Duncan) The unit of analysis, although
there are four areas for each variant, the unit of analysis is
four together.
5. Right.
(Ms Duncan) The pilot areas were selected
to reflect different labour markets and different types of areas.
When you are looking you need to look at the four together rather
than the individual ones, that is really the way that they make
sense.
6. You did not consider using local authority
areas or any other smaller focused areas where you could actually
look at micro economies, individual community economies?
(Ms Duncan) The size of the area and
the number of areas per variant was really dictated by the flow
through of claimants that we needed to draw reliable results.
That meant we needed four areas in order to get sufficient numbers
of the three key claimant groups in order to say anything about
the effectiveness.
7. So local authorities were not really given
an option of trying to be involved in a local authority area specific
set of pilots? You did not consider going into local authority
areas?
(Mr Brown) We looked at them all: the
Employment Service district, the local authority area and the
Benefit Agency district. As Sue has been suggesting, one of the
primary determinants was the number of people who needed to flow
into particular types of benefit so that we could have meaningful
results. That meant that you needed to have a conglomerate of
local authorities so that you could get that number of people
claiming housing benefit and council tax benefit. I suppose the
only exception to that would be in Leeds which has sufficient
numbers and happens to be both a BA and an ES district. If you
had used local authorities to get the volumes we are speaking
about, you would have been biased towards Birmingham, Leeds, Leicester,
cities rather than the type of arrangements we have which covers
urban/rural varieties, urban varieties within rural. The Benefit
Agency district was the most administratively valuable in those
terms.
8. Presumably it would be safe to assume that
the New Deal experience, such as it is, has played a part in setting
up these pilot studies?
(Mr Brown) Yes. There is a number of
ways. One is, as I said, in design terms, the personal adviser
model has proved popular and effective as we heard at the informal
meeting. It has been a successful approach and we need to build
and develop that particular approach. The other way that it has
influenced is that we are developing local partnerships to deliver
this at various levels. In the district there is a pilot management
group which brings together the Benefit Agency, the Employment
Service and the local authority in each of those localities to
plan and implement. That is based on the New Deal approach to
things.
9. If the New Deal is informing the process
then are you concerned about the drop-out rates? There are some
figures which suggest that people do actually drop out of the
system in terms of the New Deal. Are you worried that there is
a deterrence factor in this new set up that might cause people
to just shy clear of the whole process?
(Mr Brown) I do not expect that to happen.
This is at the front end of the claim rather than later on in
the claim. I think at the front end of the claim is the stage
when people are wanting to make their initial claim to benefit.
Our design principles do not expect there to be a high level of
drop-out or deterrence at that particular stage.
10. What would you consider to be a high level
of drop-out?
(Mr Brown) I am not sure. I think what
we are anticipating for this stage, between making an initial
inquiry at the registration and orientation stage and going forward
to fill in the claim form that there will be a drop-out of one
per cent, which I do not consider high. One per cent would be
people coming in who were making a general inquiry about whether
they might be entitled to benefit and you are able to tell them
then and there they are not because they are 65 years old or they
are 14 years old, they do not fall into the categories of working
age.
11. Statistics for the New Deal for Young People
that I have seen, and I am referring to the New Deal statistics
first released, suggest that nationally 18 per cent of participants
leave the Gateway for unknown destinations. Around six per cent
of those invited to take part in the New Deal for Young People
leave before having their first interview. Do you think we will
do better than that with this?
(Mr Brown) If we go into the stages,
registration and orientation is the first stage. People will go
to the registration and orientation interview. There will be a
basic check on their entitlement, there will be the beginnings
of a discussion about types of work they need and want to do.
There will be an investigation of where they have to go, whether
they should be claiming child support, whether they should be
in touch with the Child Support Agency. From that people will
flow to the personal adviser interview. The personal adviser interview
will be compulsory for everyone claiming Jobseeker's Allowance
so I do not expect there to be drop-out at that stage. It will
not be compulsory at the moment for people claiming other benefits.
I think we might very well see numbers such as those you have
referred to not wanting to take part in a personal adviser interview
at this stage for a number of reasons. If people have been unemployed
for a long time they are often scared to make commitments and
the personal adviser interview will be seeking to encourage them
to make commitments.
12. So you know the statistics could be improved
upon in the Single Work-focused Gateway as opposed to New Deal
for Young People? You are hoping to do better that these statistics
that I have just quoted to you?
(Mr Brown) I think we are at the beginning
of a claim process. We have an opportunity here to get people
before they have been unemployed for a period of time and have
the effects of unemployment telling on them.
(Mr Barnham) Could I just add something? It is worth
bearing in mind that the New Deal Gateway and the Single Work-focused
Gateway are very different things. In the New Deal Gateway you
have got young, long-term unemployed people who are undergoing
a mandatory process and at the end of that if they do not get
a job, or do not leave the benefit, they have another mandatory
option. In the Single Gateway, the requirement that is placed
upon them, assuming the legislation is passed and those initial
interviews become compulsory, is much more modest. We are only
asking people to come and have a discussion with a personal adviser,
there is no requirement beyond that on them to do any particular
activity.
13. Can I turn to two quick further questions
from me? I am concerned, I have had some correspondence about
this myself and I am sure my colleagues have as well, indeed the
TUC have raised it, they are worried about the inherent conflict
that is involved where a disabled person goes through the process
because on the one hand they are trying to establish a claim for
benefit and on the other hand they are trying to prove they are
incapable of work. How can you cope with that? What reassurance
can you give the TUC and disabled organisations and pressure groups
representing the disabled that they are not going to suffer unduly
from that potential conflict?
(Mr Groombridge) Perhaps I can answer
on that one. What we are doing with the Gateway and with the Work-focused
interview in particular is we are seeking to have a discussion
with people, not just disabled people but obviously that is one
of the kinds of groups that we expect to come along and to talk
to them about the kinds of barriers that they face, the kind of
employment potential that they have got. In the discussion that
we will have with them we will make a distinction between the
medical assessment, which will eventually be the personal capacity
assessment, and we will have in the Work-
focused interview a fairly broad ranging discussion
which is designed to help them explore whatever pathway there
may exist to independence from benefit. Really the two can sit
side by side. What we would like to do in the Gateway is to encourage
people to start planning and thinking about what possibilities
do exist from the outset. The personal capability assessment is
likely to be some way down the line but addressing the barriers,
the potential, that people have right from the outset enables
us to help them, to sit down with them and start planning with
them and that is what we are about.
14. Can I turn finally to the position of Jobseeker's
Allowance claimants and Lee Brown told the Committee at an earlier
informal session that 80 per cent or so of the Single Work-focused
Gateway through-flow would be clients claiming Jobseeker's Allowance.
How will the experiences of Jobseeker's Allowance claimants in
the pilot areas therefore differ from those in other areas?
(Mr Brown) It will be different in a
number of ways. One is that the registration and orientation phase
that we have spoken about will take place in the pilot areas whereas
in control areas people will see a receptionist, the receptionist
will hand them forms and they will be told when their interview
is for a new Jobseeker interview. In the pilot areas they will
see a registration and orientation adviser, a person who is more
knowledgeable and skilled than a receptionist. That person will
begin to ask questions to help establish what the individual's
needs are. They will then see a personal adviser. A personal adviser
in the pilot area will be different from the new client adviser
in the control area, they will have more skills and knowledge
and they will have the support of a team of experts and specialists
who they will be able to call to support them in dealing with
the client. I think there are those two primary differences. It
will be a different qualitative and quantitative experience. More
time will be spent with the client and more things will be able
to be done with that client, more opportunities opened up to them.
Mr Pond
15. I want to explore some of the aspects of
your memorandum, which is very helpful, on how to operate. We
have talked a bit about this initial and second stage of the process.
First on the registration and orientation phase, which is the
bit, I take it, which is going to be the compulsory bit?
(Mr Brown) Yes[2].
16. Now on that, in your memorandum, you say:
"At this initial stage the member of staff will..."
and then you list a number of things which will happen. The second
thing you list is that "... where it is appropriate, explore
whether there are any suitable job vacancies available, which
the client could pursue immediately...". Apart from the Jobseeker's
Allowance claimants, what sorts of circumstances do you envisage
as being appropriate in which at that stage you should be thinking
about the job vacancies available?
(Mr Brown) That will depend on what happens
in each interview. The adviser and the client will be discussing
the circumstances and the situations of the client. I do not think
we can have an iron rule to say what will be appropriate for every
different type of client. Certainly for everyone claiming the
Jobseeker's Allowance, it could be appropriate to seek to submit
them to a vacancy but I think in other client groups that are
coming in, a number of lone parents may want to immediately seek
work and to help them to do that we would be seeking to help them
with their child care arrangements. There may be other people
seeking benefits, people that come into claim housing benefit
or council tax benefit will probably be seeking to claim another
benefit too, who may wish to return to the labour market as quickly
as possible. I do not think we can say there is an iron law of
what is appropriate, it will vary with each situation and each
individual and the advisers will be able to, with the client,
make that judgment and assessment.
17. There is obviously a potential sensitivity
here, is there not, because very clearly it is only the jobseekers
that will be required to go on to the next stage and take up one
of the options offered and other groups, such as lone parents,
people with disabilities, will not? There could be a potential
difficulty of advisers leaving claimants to think that since job
vacancies are being explored at this stage they will in fact be
required to pursue those options. Will there be any guidance or
training for advisers explicitly to try and see if that is the
case?
(Mr Brown) Yes, we are doing a number
of things around training. One is that on 16 to 17 June we will
be having a conference for advisers to raise their awareness of
specialist client groups. The conference has been designed along
with organisations that represent specialist clients—homeless,
disabled people, carers, people with health problems. It is going
to take place on 16/17 June to allow the specialist groups to
put over, to advise, on the importance of sensitivity. It is a
supplement to the ongoing training that advisers will already
have undergone or will be undergoing to ensure that they are sensitive
to special needs of clients.
18. For those clients for which the job vacancies
are being pursued, is there any likelihood of delay in claims
for benefit being processed whilst those possibilities are explored?
(Mr Brown) No. I think we are sensitive
to the need for people who are making claims to get their claims
processed as quickly as possible. It is one of the factors that
we will be judging the pilots by.
19. Thank you. Then if we can move on to the
second stage, the personal adviser Work-
focused interviews themselves. For new claims, how
long would you envisage that initial interview will take?
(Mr Brown) That new interview for a new
claimant will be around 50 minutes. At the same time as they are
getting their new claim interview there will be another specialist
benefit person checking the claim form to make sure that everything
has been filled in so that once the interview, the new work-
focused interview, is completed, the benefit form
can be sent immediately for processing. That means we have verified
that individuals have brought the evidence that they require with
them, completed all the boxes in the claim form that we need so
that the interview as a whole will be around an hour.
2 Note from Witness: From April 2000 it is
the intention for the work focused interview to be compulsory. Back
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