Examination of Witness (Questions 80 -
99)
TUESDAY 13 JULY 1999
MR DON
TOUHIG MP
Mr Foster
80. I wonder if you can go over the timetable
again. You mentioned the 9th was when you first approached. We
have heard some evidence it was on the 10th that the Committee
formally discussed your possible involvement, the mention of you.
When you were approached on 9th, what was the nature of that approach?
What was said to you?
(Mr Touhig) You are correct in saying the Committee
formally on 10th, at the Chairman's request, decided to approach
me but Members spoke to me on 9th along the lines that there was
a problem with the Treasury, the Treasury was being unhelpful
and unco-operative to the work of the Select Committee and this
was going to cause them great difficulty and I should know about
it.
81. On 9th, that is all that was said?
(Mr Touhig) Yes.
82. When did you receive a copy of the Report?
(Mr Touhig) I received a copy of the Report later
that day.
83. On 9th?
(Mr Touhig) On 9th.
84. Now, our understanding is all the copy Reports
were numbered, was the copy you received numbered?
(Mr Touhig) I cannot answer that. I do not know, I
am afraid, I did not take any notice.
85. Was the document you subsequently returned
when requested, was that a document you received or a copy of
it?
(Mr Touhig) No, it was the document I received.
86. Was a further approach made to you after
10th when your name had been mentioned or after 9th was that the
end of it?
(Mr Touhig) No, colleagues also spoke to me after
I believe the Committee met on the morning of 10th and referred
to it again and asked if there was anything I could do to persuade
the Treasury to give evidence. I think the Committee then decided
the Chairman would write directly to the Chancellor and I was
asked if I could intervene in any way to try to persuade the Treasury
to change its mind.
87. Were you aware from any information in the
public domain that this was a problem that the Committee were
having difficulty or was it only as a result of what you were
told by a colleague?
(Mr Touhig) I was only aware of what I was told initially
by a colleague, yes. That was how I was alerted to it, colleagues
told me there was a problem so far as the Treasury not co-operating
in giving evidence to the Committee.
88. I wonder if you can recall the circumstances
under which you felt it was necessary to see the Report to enable
you to deal with the issue?
(Mr Touhig) I think it was a pretty heavy day, as
I recall. Initially I did not take a lot in when my colleague
spoke to me, and when I was spoken to again by another colleague
then I saw there was a serious problem and I said, "I do
not understand this. What is the difficulty?" "We are
considering a report on this matter." "Let me see it
so I can better understand it."
89. So when she originally approached you, you
did not actually have the Report in front of you at that point?
(Mr Touhig) No.
Mr Campbell-Savours
90. Can I say that what happened in the conversations
on the 9th is very important because, of course, it is happening
the day before the Committee was actually about to consider the
Report. Can I take you back to those conversations? How many members
do you remember came up to you?
(Mr Touhig) I think three.
91. Three members?
(Mr Touhig) I think three members spoke to me at different
times over the two days.
92. Three over the two days?
(Mr Touhig) Over the two days, on the 9th and the
10th. Three separate members.
93. I am trying to look at what happened before
they considered it, that is to say before you actually received
a copy of the Report, how many members—
(Mr Touhig) I think two members.
94. Two members came to see you before you received
a copy of the Report?
(Mr Touhig) Yes.
95. When you asked for the Report did you consider
that it might well be you were committing a sin?
(Mr Touhig) I did not but I should have realised that
it was not the right thing to do.
96. Did the conversation with the person who
gave you the Report include concerns about what that member might
be doing?
(Mr Touhig) No, it did not.
97. Do you think that member even realised what
they were doing was actually breaking a rule of the House of Commons?
(Mr Touhig) I think not, in fairness. I think the
member was responding to me saying I need to understand this,
let me read it to see what it is about.
98. Had anyone asked you to get a copy of that
Report?
(Mr Touhig) No.
99. So it was very much on your own initiative?
(Mr Touhig) Yes.
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