Examination of Witness (Questions 140
- 157)
TUESDAY 13 JULY 1999
MR DON
TOUHIG MP
140. Both?
(Mr Touhig) Yes. I think the political advisers, I
am not certain of the civil servants, they may have been overhearing
a brief conversation that I had.
141. What was the nature of the conversation?
(Mr Touhig) The nature of the conservation was that
the Social Security Select Committee were very angry with the
Treasury. The Treasury was failing to respond to a number of requests,
I understood, to give evidence to it. They were going to be very
angry about this and I thought the Treasury should look at the
matter again.
142. Did you feel that it was appropriate to
tell them that in fact the Report was going to be potentially
damaging in its original form?
(Mr Touhig) No.
143. You did not? That is a very persuasive
argument to get them to see the Committee.
(Mr Touhig) You will see in my response to the Chairman's
letter last week I did not discuss the contents of the Report
with anybody. I did flag up the worries the Committee were having
but I did not discuss the content.
144. Worries, are you talking now about the
worries about the content or the worries about the failure to
give evidence?
(Mr Touhig) The worries about the failure to give
evidence.
145. You never thought it necessary to deal
with the content at all?
(Mr Touhig) I did not feel it necessary to deal with
the content.
146. The Report was pretty useless to you?
(Mr Touhig) Well, when you say useless in the sense
I tried to understand the problem, I did not read the whole Report,
I read bits of it that I felt were relevant to the point being
made to me. That is the way I took it up with the Treasury.
147. Did you or did you allow anybody else photocopy
the document?
(Mr Touhig) No.
148. No-one at all?
(Mr Touhig) No.
149. This is the first leaked document you have
ever handled as a PPS?
(Mr Touhig) Yes.
Mr Williams: Bear with me. A lot of my
questions have been asked.
Chairman
150. Did you summarise any of this Report to
anyone?
(Mr Touhig) No, I did not. I did not discuss the contents
of the Report.
151. Not at all? Not to anybody?
(Mr Touhig) Not at all. I made that plain, I hope,
in my letter to you last week. I did raise the issue of the concerns
the Committee were having with the Treasury.
Mr Williams
152. We are in a slight quandary in that the
Chairman has already said to us that the first time the issue
of approaching you was raised was actually at ten to one on the
Wednesday at their meeting just as they were finishing. Your name
did not appear to have been mentioned prior to that. Indeed the
evidence we have had suggests that so far as he was concerned,
other than in passing—that was his actual phrase "in
passing"—there had been no reference to the need to
put on any pressure or do anything to make an approach to the
Treasury. Yet the day before this specific request was raised
at ten to one, one or two, possibly three people—
(Mr Touhig) Two I think.
153. Two or three over the two days.
(Mr Touhig) I think I recall two.
Mr Campbell-Savours: Two before asking
for the Report.
Mr Williams
154. Did you ask the first one or the second
one for a copy of the Report?
(Mr Touhig) I think it was the first person who spoke
to me.
155. You knew you had no right to it?
(Mr Touhig) Yes.
156. I am still puzzled that you did not to
some extent, Don, at least alert the new Member to the risk they
were taking. It could be very damaging for their career, particularly
if they are a Member in a marginal constituency, if they are adversely
named in a situation like that. Did you not alert them at all
to the risks they were facing?
(Mr Touhig) I did not consider it at that time. It
was not out of any lack of regard, it just did not come to my
mind at that time.
Mr Williams: I think that finishes my
questioning.
Mr Campbell-Savours
157. Prior to asking for the document, were
you aware there had been a briefing of the press on these issues?
(Mr Touhig) I was not aware at that time.
Mr Campbell-Savours: Thank you, Chairman.
Chairman: Thank you, Don, for coming
along today.
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