|
Mr. George Howarth: I beg to move amendment No. 96, in page 72, line 3, at end insert--
` . In section 51 (offences of intimidating, and of doing or threatening harm to, witnesses, jurors and others), for subsections (1) to (3) substitute--
``(1) A person commits an offence if--
(a) he does an act which intimidates, and is intended to intimidate, another person (``the victim''),
(b) he does the act knowing or believing that the victim is assisting in the investigation of an offence or is a witness or potential witness or a juror or potential juror in proceedings for an offence, and
(c) he does it intending thereby to cause the investigation or the course of justice to be obstructed, perverted or interfered with.
(2) A person commits an offence if--
(a) he does an act which harms, and is intended to harm, another person or, intending to cause another person to fear harm, he threatens to do an act which would harm that other person,
(b) he does or threatens to do the act knowing or believing that the person harmed or threatened to be harmed (``the victim''), or some other person, has assisted in an investigation into an offence or has given evidence or particular evidence in proceedings for an offence, or has acted as a juror or concurred in a particular verdict in proceedings for an offence, and
(c) he does or threatens to do it because of that knowledge or belief.
(3) For the purposes of subsections (1) and (2) it is immaterial that the act is or would be done, or that the threat is made--
(a) otherwise than in the presence of the victim; or
(b) to a person other than the victim.'''.
The Chairman: With this it will be convenient to take Government amendment, No. 97.
Mr. Howarth: A recent judicial decision on intimidation of witnesses through a third party, although overturned by the Court of Appeal, has raised some concerns about the drafting of the law in section 51 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994. The essence of the misunderstanding appears to be in relation to section 51(3), which states:
``A person does an action `to' another person with the intention of intimidating, or (as the case may be) harming, that other person not only where the act is done in the presence of that other and directed at him directly but also where the act is done to a third person and is intended in the circumstances to intimidate or (as the case may be) harm the person at whom the act is directed.''
12.15 pm
I hope that the Committee could follow that. It has been suggested that a threat to harm the witness, relayed through a third party, would not be caught by the offence. The Court of Appeal's recent ruling confirmed that it would. Nevertheless, the Government feel that we should not lose this opportunity to put the matter beyond doubt.
The amendment seeks to clarify the law as it stands. It does not in any way change the existing provisions but merely clarifies the position in relation to the intimidation of witnesses and others involved in criminal investigations and proceedings. I hope that on the understanding that this has arisen out of experience and that we feel that there is a need for this change, the Committee will feel able to support it.
Mr. Greenway: I recall the 1994 legislation being passed. It is staggering to think that it is five years ago. How quickly time flies. I am grateful for the Under-Secretary's explanation of the amendment. On the basis of his comment that this helps to improve and strengthen that legislation in the light of experience, I am happy to give the Opposition's support to the amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
Schedule 4, as amended, agreed to.
Schedule 5 agreed to.
Schedule 6
REPEALS
Amendments made: No. 30, in page 75, line 32, at end insert--
No. 31, in page 76, line 13, at end insert--
`1977 c. 37.
Patents Act 1977.
Section 32(12).'.
No. 32, in page 76, line 21, at end insert--
`1979 c. 2.
Customs and Excise Management Act 1979.
Section 75A(6)(b).
In section 118A(6)(b), the words ``sections 69 and 70 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 and''.'.
No. 33, in page 76, line 28, column 3, at beginning insert--
No. 34, in page 76, line 37, column 3, at end insert--
No. 35, in page 76, line 37, at end insert--
No. 36, in page 76, line 38, column 3, at beginning insert--
`In section 23(1), paragraph (c) and the ``and'' preceding it.
In section 24(1), paragraph (c) and the ``and'' preceding it.'.
No. 82, in page 77, line 17, column 3, at end insert--
No . 37, in page 77, line 17, at end insert--
`1994 c. 9.
Finance Act 1994.
In section 22(2)(b), the words ``sections 69 and 70 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 and''.
In Schedule 7, in paragraph 1(6)(b), the words ``sections 69 and 70 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 and''.
1994 c. 23.
Value Added Tax
ƒAct 1994.
In Schedule 11, in paragraph 6(6)(b), the words ``sections 69 and 70 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 and''.'.
No. 38, in page 77, line 27, at end insert--
`1995 c. 38.
Civil Evidence Act
ƒ1995.
In Schedule 1, paragraph 10.
1996 c. 8.
Finance Act 1996.
In Schedule 5, in paragraph 2(6)(a), the words ``sections 69 and 70 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 and''.'.
No. 39, in page 77, line 29, column 3, at end insert `, 27'.--[Mr. Boateng.]
Schedule 6, as amended, agreed to.
Schedule 7
TRANSITIONAL PROVISIONS AND SAVINGS
Amendment made: No. 40, in page 79, line 20, leave out `to allegations within subsection (1) of that section whether made' and insert `in relation to an alleged offence whether the criminal investigation into it is begun'.--[Mr. Boateng.]
Schedule 7, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 66
Short title, commencement and extent
Mr. Boateng: I beg to move amendment No. 42, in page 46, line 35, at end insert--
`( ) For the purposes of the Scotland Act 1998, any provision of this Act which extends to Scotland shall be taken to be a pre-commencement enactment within the meaning of that Act.'.
The effect of the amendment is to ensure that the ministerial functions conferred by the Bill, so far as they are exercisable under devolved competence, would transfer automatically under section 53 of the Scotland Act 1998 to Scottish Ministers. That section provides, among other things, that the functions conferred on a Minister of the Crown by any pre-commencement enactment shall, as far as they relate to devolved matters, be exercisable by Scottish Ministers instead. Pre-commencement enactments include any Acts passed in the same Session as the Scotland Act 1998 but not Bills in the present Session--such as this one--which effectively straddle the commencement period.
The amendment ensures that for the purposes of the Scotland Act 1998 this Bill is deemed to be a pre-commencement enactment. I am grateful for the reminder on Second Reading from the hon. Member for Perth (Ms Cunningham) that this so-called deeming provision would be needed.
Mr. Greenway: I am happy to accept what the Minister said about amendment No. 42, but I would be grateful if he would say a few words about his proposal to omit subsection (10) of the clause.
The Chairman: Order. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman knows that that is the next amendment.
Mr. Greenway: I beg your pardon, Mr. Stevenson.
Amendment agreed to.
Mr. Boateng: I beg to move amendment No. 41, in page 47, line 34, leave out subsection (10).
I now come to the amendment that was causing the hon. Member for Ryedale to become agitated. When the Bill started its passage in another place, subsection (10) was inserted in the usual way to avoid infringing the privilege of this House to control charges on public funds. Now that the Bill has passed to this House, we need to omit the subsection--again in the usual way--so that public funds can be used to implement the Bill.
The Bill will incur some charge on public funds, as its explanatory notes make clear. We expect part I to save more than £4 million overall, but part II is likely to cost more than £6 million. Therefore, the Bill will result in additional expenditure.
Mr. Greenway: In a momentary aberration, I thought that the two amendments to the clause had been taken together. Such a mistake is easily made, especially when one is endeavouring to reach the conclusion to our proceedings.
I understand the point that the amendment is a routine nicety. I hope that the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy is not about to leave the Room, because I think that he will agree with what I am about to say. We have a good opportunity now, which we shall not have on Report, to place on record our concerns about cost. If the measures in part I are implemented with the enthusiasm and vigour that are necessary, the Bill will prove rather more expensive than the Government suggest. The cost of establishing and running youth offending teams and the prospect of establishing, in the fullness of time, several thousand youth offender panels for first-time young offenders who plead guilty will prove more expensive than the Government admit.
Mr. Llwyd: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for naming and shaming me. I am due to attend a Select Committee upstairs. However, I am pleased that I stayed here, because the hon. Gentleman's words were extremely wise.
Mr. Greenway: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his comment.
Mr. Bob Russell: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, if the Bill works as we hope that it does, the costs will be more than offset by fewer young people being drawn into a life of crime?
|
