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Mr. Mandelson: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his support and that of the Liberal Democrat party for what I have announced. I can readily accept and endorse the bulk of what he said. On the oath, the House may be interested to learn that the Home Secretary is considering extending the reference to human rights to the police oath for the United Kingdom as a whole. That would be welcome.
On the hon. Gentleman's questions, yes, we will be doing everything we can to promote the new police service and to encourage applicants from all parts of society in Northern Ireland, not merely nationalists, to join. On reducing the size of the police service, that is a judgment that the Chief Constable will make in the first instance, and it will indeed be linked to his assessment of the security threat.
Mr. Ken Maginnis (Fermanagh and South Tyrone):
The Secretary of State will remember that the very first paragraph of the terms of reference of the Patten commission instructed that commission to
May I remind the Secretary of State that his predecessor, on her first visit as Secretary of State to Northern Ireland, made the dangerous promise that she would change the nature of the RUC? Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to admit that the preparations for Patten were carried out by the Chief Constable when he was Deputy Chief Constable and brought forward his fundamental review? Furthermore, does the Secretary of State accept that many of the points in that fundamental review were quite acceptable to the majority of people and would have found widespread community support if they had not been changed and corrupted by the Patten commission, and if those issues had not been endorsed by the Government?
It appears that there were two major objectives of the Government's plans. One was to change the name of the RUC, and I have dealt with that. The other was to ensure that the RUC would be able to recruit from both traditions within Northern Ireland--something that my party wholeheartedly supports. However, is the Secretary of State suggesting that we should create district police partnerships, in which the scum of parochial politics--the Mr. McElduffs and Mr. Conways--will participate?
In case people do not know who Mr. McElduff and Mr. Conway are, I should point out that Mr. McElduff has campaigned against a senior Roman Catholic cleric, Monsignor Denis Faul, who has tried to interface with the RUC on behalf of the community with which he works. If Mr. McElduff and his like are prepared to take on Monsignor Denis Faul and to ask the archbishop to remove him as parish priest in Carrickmoor, what are they likely to do to 18 and 19-year-old young men and women whom the Secretary of State and I want to join the RUC?
The intimidation will continue because although the Secretary of State has proposed that the name of the RUC be changed, one thing has not changed--the name of Sinn Fein-IRA. Those people continue to organise and to be armed. They continue to ride on the backs of the entire community and, as Monsignor Faul has said, specifically the Roman Catholic tradition in Northern Ireland--
Madam Speaker:
Order. I understand fully the strong feelings on this issue, but I have a lot of business today to safeguard. The Secretary of State has let the House know that there will be areas of legislation on which speeches will be made. With respect to the House, today is not the time to make speeches--it is the time to question the statement made by the Secretary of State. I have so far called only three other Members to question the statement. I hope that those whom I wish to call will be brisk in putting their question and, likewise, that the Secretary of State will be brisk in answering. This cannot go on, as we have so much more business to conduct this afternoon. Will the hon. Gentleman come to his point?
Mr. Maginnis:
I am grateful, Madam Speaker, that you recognise the sensitivity of the issue. This concerns the future of law and order in Northern Ireland, as I am sure the Secretary of State will agree. He talked about human rights, but can he tell us whether there will be any human rights training for those two members of Sinn Fein-IRA who will be on the police board? How will the Secretary of State find hundreds of millions of pounds to create the
Mr. Mandelson:
I think that it would be best if I responded to three specific points that the hon. Gentleman raised, rather than responding in kind to the rhetoric that he offered and that, on mature reflection, he might like to reconsider.
Mr. Maginnis:
I am not a betrayer.
Mr. Mandelson:
The hon. Gentleman has said to me many times in the past that he compliments me on what I have said about the RUC, that he welcomes statements I have made in support of the RUC, and that he is glad of the stand that I have made for the RUC since I became Secretary of State. Therefore, I am surprised that he chooses to say something different in public from what he has said to me in private.
On the three specific points, it is true that the decisions I am announcing today stand alone on their own merits and independently from the Good Friday agreement. I intend that the reform of the police in Northern Ireland will continue, whatever cloud happens to gather over the institutions of the Good Friday agreement.
As for the district police partnerships, there is no question of any member of any district police partnership being able to exercise any improper influence, let alone control, over any aspect of police operations or any individual member of the police in that district. As far as human rights training is concerned, each member of the police board will be subject to the same strictures and expectations as every member of the police service of Northern Ireland.
Mr. Harry Barnes (North-East Derbyshire):
There are only two collective areas to which the George Cross has ever been issued--one is Malta and the other is the RUC. Malta was proud to call itself Malta GC. I understand from what my right hon. Friend has said that, in 2001, the Northern Ireland police force can be known as the Northern Ireland police force GC. That will be a continuing recognition of the work of the RUC into the future. I hope that Ulster Unionist Members will accept that the significance of the award of the George Cross to the RUC will continue to be recognised in the development of a police force that will service the whole community.
Mr. Mandelson:
My hon. Friend makes a very good point. The George Cross was awarded by the Queen to the RUC in recognition of its success in leading a campaign against the most sustained onslaught of terrorism the developed world has ever seen. During that time, the RUC exhibited extraordinary courage, bravery and valour, and that will never cease to be associated with the RUC and also--I hope--with the police as a whole in Northern Ireland. The RUC and the Chief Constable are considering how the award of the George Cross can be recognised in perpetuity--I am certainly determined that it should be.
Mr. Peter Brooke (Cities of London and Westminster):
On 9 September, when the Patten report was published, the Secretary of State's predecessor said:
Mr. Mandelson:
The right hon. Gentleman is right to say that the morale of the RUC is absolutely central to our continuing ability to combat terrorism, and crime in all its forms. I am very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for focusing on the question of morale.
I have never once visited Northern Ireland without meeting members of the Royal Ulster Constabulary. I have done more than just meet them: I have sat down to discuss policing with groups of officers drawn from all ranks. That has happened on each and every occasion that I have made a visit.
I acknowledge that there is uncertainty in the RUC. There is some fear--
Mr. Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield):
And hostility.
"bring forward proposals for future policing structures and arrangements, including means of encouraging widespread community support for those arrangements".
Does he realise that despite his euphemistic language, my right hon. Friend the Member for Upper Bann (Mr. Trimble)--the leader of the Ulster Unionist party--is absolutely right to say that what has been announced today degrades, demeans and denigrates an honourable force that has stood four-square between the law-abiding community--the greater number of people in Northern Ireland--and the terrorists for the past 30 years? Can I suggest to the Secretary of State that it is misleading of him to suggest that the changes that are taking place have anything to do with the Belfast agreement, or with anything that my party assented to within the terms of that agreement?
"This report is about policing. As Chris Patten said, it is not about politics . . . It has been the RUC who have held the fabric of this society together over the past 30 years."
Against that background, can the Secretary of State share with the House the reactions at all levels of the RUC itself to these proposals, as the morale of that force is crucial to the future?
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