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BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 15 (Exempted business),
Question again proposed, That this House do now adjourn.--[Mr. Kirkwood.]
Madam Speaker:
Order. Just a few more Members wish to speak. It is a House of Commons matter, as the hon. Member for Hazel Grove (Mr. Stunell) would agree. I want to hear those Members out. It is right that we should.
Mr. Stunell:
Thank you, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker:
But I hope that Members will not take up too much of our time.
Mr. Stunell:
I do not intend to. I appreciate your protection from my colleague, the hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire (Mr. Kirkwood).
We have a string of recommendations, which my hon. Friend described as the first phase, or the first tier of decisions. We should endorse that first tier and encourage him and the Commission to get on with the second tier as quickly as possible.
Sir George Young (North-West Hampshire):
As a fellow Commissioner, Madam Speaker, I propose to say little, but I know that our deliberations will have been illuminated by the debate.
I, too, compliment Michael Braithwaite and his team on the report. It required an unusual combination of skills: insight into the life of Members and the culture of Parliament; and an understanding of modern business management structures. It is a readable document, which has inspired an interesting "Second Reading" debate in the Commission.
I make six quick points. First, devising a management system for the complex business that is the House would be a major challenge in itself, but a management system that incorporates Members at the right place, with all the pressures on our time and sensitivities, requires genius. The difficulty that confronted both Ibbs and Braithwaite was how to insert into a conventional corporate management structure an essentially unconventional non-corporate person--namely, a Member of Parliament, whose predominant interests and commitments lie elsewhere.
Secondly, the report asserts that it is all or nothing. Paragraph 25 states:
Thirdly, there are some important issues about the domestic Committees. On Tuesday, we debated an important report from the Administration Committee, to which only three of the nine members had put their name. Select Committees have difficulty with quorums and continuity of membership. The domestic Committees face an even greater problem. Absenteeism on Select Committees has increased from 25 per cent. in 1995-96 to 34 per cent. in 1998-99. The figure for the Select Committee on Education and Employment is 50 per cent. I am happy to say that the Select Committee on Modernisation, on which I sit, has an 84 per cent. attendance rate.
Members of Parliament come to Westminster to represent their constituents, to support the Government or to hold them to account, to specialise in particular policy areas that interest them and to build a political career. There is growing pressure on our time, and that is unlikely to be reversed. Members do not come to Westminster to sit on a domestic Committee. As the pressure on Members' time has mounted, they have cut back on areas that are not priorities.
Mrs. Llin Golding (Newcastle-under-Lyme):
I will not detain the House long, but the thing that concerns me about the report is its lack of clarity on what is happening to ordinary staff here. Terms and conditions of work change rapidly, yet I could not find out from the report whom, to talk to if I am concerned about someone, say, in the Tea Room who had had their conditions altered, some of the doormen, or a reduction in numbers. There does not seem to be anything in the report that explains how those matters are decided.
Sir George Young:
It sounds as if the hon. Lady was one of the hon. Members interrogated by the hon. Member for Ealing, Acton and Shepherd's Bush (Mr. Soley) and invited to say whom she would go to. The answer that was given by the hon. Gentleman was the Clerk, who will, if not answer the question himself, at least route it in the right direction. However, she has made the point that there is lack of clarity about the management structure.
Against the background of the problem of the domestic Committees, I found it a bold recommendation that we should retain them.
Fourthly, I think that that raises a broader question about an alternative career structure in the House--which recognises that becoming a Minister is not the only way of serving; which recognises that, if Parliament is to do its job properly, it is important to have on both sides of the House hon. Members who do not want to become Ministers; and which recognises the contributions of those hon. Members. Although that takes us beyond this debate, I believe that, if such a structure existed, it would make it easier to deal with some of the problems identified by Braithwaite.
Fifthly, and penultimately, there is the proposal to make the Finance and Services Committee, which is composed entirely of hon. Members, the Commission's executive committee. The criticism of the domestic Committees was that they acted in executive mode, not policy mode. The proposals for the Finance and Services Committee run the risk of magnifying that problem--of muddling up policy and services.
As for paragraph 4.21, I am not sure that these are the right tasks for members. One of them is
Finally, I should like to say a word on the Commission. Paragraph 4.6 reminds us of what Ibbs hoped that the Commission would do. The report tactfully suggests that we have not lived up to expectations, and I agree. However, I have some difficulty with the paragraph that asserts that the Commission is of the right size. It consists of the Speaker and five Members, many of whom are doing many other things--not least, of course, Madam Speaker.
It is worth considering the option of a larger Commission, not least because paragraph 15.10 envisages the Commission doing more work. If we had a larger Commission, it would give breadth and depth to our discussion, and we are rather light on newer and younger members.
Mr. Richard Allan (Sheffield, Hallam):
It might be useful if I, as Chairman of the Information Committee, were to share with the House some of the Committee's views on the report. Many of the matters that we cover are matters of great concern to hon. Members, and today's debate has reinforced that view in my mind. I should like to try to explain how the Committee sees our role in the context of Braithwaite and of some of the points made in the debate.
We certainly believe that the information technology infrastructure will be increasingly important in the House. We now have more than 300 hon. Members on our
network, and, very importantly, more than 1,000 Members' staff. The vast majority of hon. Members offices are connected, even when certain Members are not using e-mail daily.
The Library facilities changed dramatically and very successfully under the previous Librarian. The facilities will continue changing in that manner, and they are one of the major points of interface for hon. Members with staff of the House. Library staff are used daily by hon. Members, and the Committee could provide valuable input in that relationship.
As for the public interface, we have the Official Report and all the work that its staff do, and the website, which provides a growing public interface. The role of the website needs to be examined, and we require policy input from hon. Members.
As the hon. Member for North Thanet (Mr. Gale) said, as the media change, it would be useful to bring together some of the broadcast functions. In terms of policy, the content that we are making available on web television, the internet and normal television could usefully be brought together. The Information Committee would perhaps not want a role in determining the rules of parliamentary broadcasting, as those could perhaps be best determined elsewhere, but we could play a role in their implementation.
That, at this day's sitting, the Motion on Representation of the People Bill (Allocation of Time) and the Motion in the name of the Prime Minister for the Adjournment of the House may be proceeded with, though opposed, until any hour.--[Mr. Dowd.]
Question agreed to.
7.2 pm
"Our recommendations are an integrated package rather than a list of options."
There is a tendency for many reports to say that nowadays. I do not think that that holds true. The report contains many stand-alone recommendations, including cross-posting staff in the House from one Department to another and a foundation period for new staff. Parts 5 and 6 contain a huge number of sensible, stand-alone recommendations, which should not be held up simply because we cannot agree on the macro-reforms.
"to carry out individual tasks delegated to it by the Commission".
That is meant to be done by members of the Finance and Services Committee, which includes the Leader of the House and the two Deputy Chief Whips. I wonder whether it is really their job to run the Commission's executive missions. Indeed, it seems that the problem is that the Finance and Services Committee, as described in Braithwaite, becomes rather close to the Board of Management.
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