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Sir George Young: On a point of order, Madam Speaker. I understand that the Government have been defeated by 96 votes in a vote on the Criminal Justice (Mode of Trial) Bill in the other place. The Leader of the House in the other place has said that the Bill is now damaged irretrievably. She has also said that the Home Secretary will make the Government's position clear. Have you received any indication from the Home Secretary that he plans to do that and, if the Leader of the House of Lords has announced that the Bill is to be re-introduced in the House of Commons, should not that announcement have been made here, not in the other place?
Madam Speaker: I have had no information from the other place about the legislation there. Unfortunately, people do not give me information about what is happening in the other place and I tend to have to wait until I read the Official Report the next day. I take the
point that the right hon. Gentleman makes, but I have not been informed by the Home Secretary that he seeks to make any statement to the House this evening.
Mr. Beith: Further to that point of order, Madam Speaker. The Leader of the House is represented here and could surely throw some light on what the Government propose to do.
The Parliamentary Secretary, Privy Council Office (Mr. Paddy Tipping) rose--
Madam Speaker: Order. I hope that this is a point of order, because I will not allow a debate.
Mr. Tipping: Further to that point of order, Madam Speaker. Is it the precedent of the House to have a statement every time the Government are defeated in the House of Lords? If it were, we would not have much time for our own discussions.
Madam Speaker: Does the hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire (Mr. Kirkwood) wish to wind up the debate?
7.23 pm
Mr. Kirkwood: Thank you, Madam Speaker. With the leave of the House, I feel a duty to make a brief response to the comments that have been made. I have found this an interesting and useful debate, and my fellow Commissioners will wish to study with great care what has been said.
The hon. Member for Ealing, Acton and Shepherd's Bush (Mr. Soley) mentioned confusion, and it is true that some confusion exists. That is unacceptable, and we are determined to do something about it. As the Commissioner who answers questions on the Floor of the House, I am delighted to be asked oral or written questions, but I cannot stimulate them myself. I do not know what questions hon. Members have. The hon. Gentleman said that he was disappointed that he got such a negative response to the rather nebulous question that he posed to his sample of Members. The answer to his question, and for any hon. Member who is confused about where to seek information, is the Commission's annual report, which is a very thorough document. It deals Department by Department with where responsibility lies and it is updated every year. It is an encyclopaedia of information. If anyone wishes to find out anything about this place, they need only take it home to read in bed.
Mr. Forth:
I shall do so tonight.
Mr. Kirkwood:
I hope that the right hon. Gentleman does.
The hon. Member for Ealing, Acton and Shepherd's Bush did not stray far from the general thrust of the report when he suggested that someone should take charge. However, he is confusing a strategic corporate officer who would set a framework within which the whole organisation could work with a customer complaints manager. That issue is dealt with fully in appendix G of the report. If the Clerk of the House were given the
support that the report recommends, he would have it in his power to make arrangements for the appointment of the equivalent of a customer services manager.
I do not think that there is a gulf between the hon. Gentleman and me. The Leader of the House noted that a person brought in from the private sector who was used to employing normal management practices would not last very long in this place. The House has a federal structure, with Chinese walls between Departments. There are also important questions of departmental independence, but the tone of the report is that we should move more quickly than has been the case so far towards a corporate structure. If we adopt that recommendation, and give the Clerk of the House the support that the report suggests, I hope that some of the problems that have been identified will be resolved.
Mr. Soley:
I agree that the gap between the hon. Gentleman and me is not that great. However, his arguments about Chinese walls and so on reminded me of the arguments used in hospitals and elsewhere to prevent the introduction of chief executives. We are in danger of repeating that error.
My point is that adopting the structure set out in the report carries the danger that the Clerk of the House would become more of a manager, and less of a Clerk. To let that happen would be to lose something very valuable.
Mr. Kirkwood:
The hon. Gentleman is right to point out that danger, but it is not one that frightens me. If the corporate structure evolves and is properly serviced, one person may end up--in the fullness of time and once people have experience of working in different departments--with the primary management role. In a proper, evolved corporate structure, it is entirely possible that someone other than the Clerk of the House could become the primus inter pares. That is envisaged in the report, although I accept that we must be careful about how we get to that stage, and that doing so will take some time.
Although I do not think that there is a lot of difference between the hon. Gentleman and me, I undertake to ensure that his comments are studied and considered.
The hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Ms King) is going to be in great demand for service on just about every domestic Committee. Her plea for better use of her time was irresistible, and I absolutely agree with her. I believe that the new intake of hon. Members has made a positive difference to the House. From the point of view of the Commission, I can tell the hon. Lady that the new intake's approach is beginning to percolate through the House in a very positive manner, and I hope that she will be encouraged by that.
It is a shame that the hon. Lady is not wired up. I shall speak to my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr. Allan), who is not without influence in such matters. I hope that an electrician with a box of wires will appear in her office quite soon.
The report states that the number of parliamentary data and video network accounts has increased by more than 1,000, or 49 per cent., since December 1997, and that the number of Members of both Houses, and their staff, with PDVN accounts has increased by 115 per cent. since December 1997. Those accounts have to be managed, and we have to find the money to pay for that. Staff are
working their socks off to make sure that demand is met, and I am delighted at the support that has been received for the work that is done.
The Commission is aware of the problems. We know that we are not responding fast enough and that there is a long way to go, but we are trying to get there. I hope that the hon. Lady will find some reassurance in the report.
I have to tell the hon. Lady that the Commission can do nothing about the rifle range, which does not belong to the House of Commons. In any case, it could be used as a creche only for children who were long and thin, who were prepared to stay in order and run in an absolutely straight line. The rifle range in fact belongs to the staff: the heritable property of the House does not belong to the Commission.
The Commission is doing its best to build on the very popular staff scheme for child care. Every 18 months or two years, the Commission asks staff about their child care voucher scheme, and they tell us that they are very happy with it. We accept that there is a need to provide such services, and the Commission is doing everything that it can in that respect.
However, I can tell the hon. Lady that everything that she said is in line with the general thrust of what Braithwaite is trying to do. I take her speech as a stern warning that, if we do not do better, faster, we will have her to reckon with in future, and quite right, too.
I am always grateful to my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith). I learned a lot from him--he was my predecessor on the Commission, and I look forward to picking his brains in the Tea Room at much greater length. I was grateful to his remarks, which added to the debate.
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