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Mr. Hughes: I understand that point. This debate concerns the most finely balanced issues. Clearly, someone who serves in the Dail and in either the Northern Ireland Assembly or the UK Parliament might well aspire to be in government. That might not be made public because they might be waiting to see which legislature offers the best opportunity first, so there is a potential hidden conflict of interest.
There is also a conflict of interest, of a type, if one is in the Government in one place--be it the Northern Ireland Assembly or the UK Government--and only in the legislature of the other because, by definition, one has a prior duty in the Administration which is in addition to one's duty as a legislator. It cannot be argued that it would be constitutionally justifiable for somebody to represent the UK Government--or the Northern Ireland Assembly, the Scottish Parliament or the Welsh Assembly--while seeking to speak for the Government of Ireland. Clearly, that must be precluded.
Mr. Gale:
So far, the Minister has agreed that the points that I have raised in relation to the Speakership are right. However, the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes) has not taken on board my earlier point. This clause bars Ministers from the Irish
Mr. Hughes:
The hon. Gentleman is correct, and our subsequent debates will address that point. I support the implication of his intervention, which is that it should not be possible to be a Minister in both legislatures, and my party has tabled a new clause to that effect. I hope that it will be accepted when we reach that debate. If the hon. Gentleman bears with our proceedings, he will be able to argue his case. I hope that he will support the new clauses then.
9 am
Our view is that, on the more limited point, the hon. Gentleman is right. The amendment is simply about whether one can be in the legislature of Ireland and a Minister--the First Minister, Deputy First Minister, a junior Minister or nominated to hold ministerial office--in the Northern Ireland Assembly. That does not raise the same constitutional objection as the point that the hon. Gentleman properly raised. We shall not support the amendments, but we shall support the later new clauses and amendment that will prevent coterminous ministerial office in both sovereign Governments or in the Government of Ireland and the Northern Ireland Assembly.
Mr. Swayne:
I do not wish to rehearse the arguments that have been well rehearsed in the past hour. Instead, I wish to focus the Minister's mind so that he can deal with the principal question when he replies.
We have dealt with the physical practicalities of dual mandates and with the principle of the desirability of holding such mandates. Much of the complaint that was made by the hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr. Ross) was conceded on Second Reading. The amendments give us the opportunity to correct one of the more glaring problems that remain--the possibility that a Minister of the Crown serving in the Assembly in Northern Ireland can, at the same time, be a Member of either House in the Irish legislature. That absurdity would be closed off by the amendments.
It is absurd because if someone discharges his responsibilities to the Crown and pursues, protects and defends the interests of Her Majesty and the people of Northern Ireland, how can he discharge his responsibilities to the legislature of the Republic of Ireland and to his constituents there? That problem spans almost every sphere of Government activity. For example, it covers the differences in agriculture and the differential interests between the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland when they negotiate in Brussels.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) told us of his experience as a Minister in the councils of Europe and of the difficulty that he had in squaring the interests of the United Kingdom with what he scathingly described, in some
cases, as the activities of Irish Ministers. One must not be so scathing, because, after all, they were only defending the interests of the Republic.
Dr. Julian Lewis:
I agree with every criticism that my hon. Friend has made of what would happen if the amendments were not accepted. In an intervention on the hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr. Ross), my hon. Friend accused him of moving a wrecking amendment. However, if the amendments were accepted, as I hope they will be, would they not be wrecking amendments? What be would left of the Bill if the absurdity is rectified?
Mr. Swayne:
My hon. Friend is mistaken. I was honest in describing it as a wrecking amendment because it would undermine the principle of the Bill that had been conceded on Second Reading. However, this amendment would remedy a problem that we had with conceding the principle on Second Reading. It tightens up the Bill and thereby improves the Bill's quality by removing a dishonest possibility. I use that phrase because I do not believe that Ministers of the Crown can discharge their responsibilities to the Crown while simultaneously serving the interests of the Republic of Ireland responsibly, as a Member of its Parliament.
I have already mentioned agriculture, which spans every sphere of Government activity. It is highly pertinent to consider the implications of the Bill in the context of economic activity. The Republic of Ireland is now part of the eurozone, whereas the United Kingdom, including Northern Ireland, is not. That creates divergent interests between the spheres in which such a Minister would operate. It would be truly impossible for him responsibly and honourably to discharge his responsibilities to both sets of constituents.
Another sphere in which that would be impossible is defence. The United Kingdom--and, by implication, Northern Ireland--is part of NATO, whereas the Republic of Ireland has always been neutral. It is monstrous to suggest that, given those stances in international affairs and defence capabilities, one could expect a Minister in the Northern Ireland Executive--a Minister discharging responsibilities to the Crown in defence matters--honestly to represent the interests of the Republic of Ireland.
That problem would be remedied by the amendments. I hope that the Minister can explain why he will not accept the amendments, but I would prefer him to explain why he will.
Mr. Sayeed:
It has become clear during this debate that there are a series of anomalies within the Bill as originally drafted, that there are contradictions inherent within the Bill, and that absurdities may occur because of the Bill. My question to the Minister is simple: when he was going through the Bill with his civil servants and other Ministers, did they spot those absurdities and notice those contradictions? If so, how did they answer them at that time, to themselves, and will the Minister tell the Committee what those answers were?
Mr. George Howarth:
Before I deal with the amendment, I should like to comment on remarks made by the hon. Member for Teignbridge (Mr. Nicholls), who readily conceded that, late in the day, he had walked in,
Mr. Nicholls:
I wondered how the Government could so mishandle their legislation that it was necessary for my right hon. and hon. Friends still to be probing matters so late into the night. When I looked at the amendment the Committee was debating, I could see what the Minister was up to. That is why I came to the Chamber and made my speech.
Mr. Howarth:
I am grateful for that further clarification, but I note that the hon. Gentleman does not deny that he based his remarks on a principle he holds important: that one cannot serve two masters. The Committee might be interested to learn that, in the most recent edition of the Register of Members' Interests, under the heading "Remunerated employment, office, profession, etc.", the hon. Gentleman lists no fewer than eight such interests. He is quite within his rights to have such interests and he has quite properly registered them. However, we are bound to ask, how many masters does he serve? We addressed the principle behind the amendment--
Mr. Nicholls:
Much as I have always liked the Minister, I have never given great credit to his intellect. Perhaps he cannot understand the difference between having different sources of remuneration and owing allegiance to two different heads of state. Even by his standards, that was a ludicrous contribution.
Mr. Howarth:
I am none the wiser as to how the hon. Gentleman sorts out the different principles in different contexts. I shall leave it to the Committee to judge why and how he chose to advance the argument about two masters.
We addressed the principle behind this amendment in the context of an earlier amendment, which was tabled by the right hon. Member for Upper Bann (Mr. Trimble). Amendment No. 3 is not entirely new territory, as the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) tried to argue. We covered some of the same ground earlier. In saying that we could not accept the earlier amendment, I set out the Government's position on potential conflicts of interest. We recognise that a potential conflict of interest might arise, were an individual to be a Minister in the Irish Government and in the Northern Ireland Executive. Any Minister must have regard not only to his own constituents, but to the interests of all those in the jurisdiction for which he has responsibility. As a result, it may well be that genuine conflicts of interest arise in those circumstances.
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