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Sir John Stanley: I am sure that, in the closing minutes of the debate, the Minister will wish to deal with the
central issue: whether the Government will now accept the proposal for the extension of the PCA's remit to civilians in the way that the PCA has proposed.
Mr. O'Brien: We will look at the points that the right hon. Gentleman has raised, but we have examined the matter and, so far, very few requests have been made for that extension. The view expressed to us is that there is insufficient cause to consider legislation to bring civilians within the independent police complaints procedure.
I would be happy to look at the issues that have been raised and discuss them with my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich, South, who is directly responsible for those issues, but the independent complaints procedure was set up to deal with the application of the police's extra powers. Therefore, there should be an independent mechanism to ensure that there is no abuse in their application. A civilian who may be acting as part of a police authority and performing a role on behalf of the police normally does not exercise those powers. Civilians are not expected to do so. Therefore, the procedures to deal with them as employees rather than as police officers are probably appropriate.
On a wider issue, there is a case for saying that there should be more standard procedures in different police forces to deal with civilians, particularly where those civilians have been engaged in administrative tasks that have affected the outcome of a legal procedure. Whether that needs to involve the independent police complaints process is a separate issue.
I do not want to say a complete no and to stonewall, particularly in a case such as the one that the right hon. Gentleman has raised. I will draw the issues to the attention of the Minister and, indeed, to my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, but the way in which the issue has developed so far has not produced great demand for civilians to be brought within the police complaints authority procedure. The right hon. Gentleman will no doubt regret that, but that appears to be the state of play.
Sir John Stanley:
I am grateful to the Minister for saying that he will consider the matter further. Given the ambit of the local government ombudsman, health service ombudsman and so on, is it not true that the civilian employees of police authorities are almost the only people at local level with regard to whom there is no independent and properly accountable recourse if members of the public have complaints of maladministration?
Mr. O'Brien:
We will need to consider that point. When bringing the right hon. Gentleman's views and those of his constituents to the Home Secretary's attention, I will ensure that that issue is raised. All I can say is that, at this juncture, it has not produced the need for change. However, the arguments that he has put are worthy of full and proper consideration by Ministers and by the Government. I am anxious, and he will understand the reasons--
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