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Miss McIntosh: I am coming to that.
Those in homes are partly covered--280,000 claim some help through income support--but they would not be deemed eligible. The remainder, perhaps another 220,000, should get the payment at a reduced rate on the basis that they are sharing accommodation with other over-60-year-olds.
Not everyone who has been in hospital for more than 12 months is included, regardless of whether they have maintained their own accommodation to which they would expect to return home, and for which they will presumably have to pay for heating in the cold months even if they are not living there at the time. Those people are excluded from winter fuel payments.
Pensioners living abroad are certainly not included, as they are deemed not to be ordinarily resident in the United Kingdom, which is perhaps fair. The estimated 1,000 people over 60 in prison are most definitely not included; they are not entitled to any social security benefits.
The payments do not apply to everyone over 60. The catch is that people had to be over 60 on a certain date to qualify. The Benefits Agency is considering precisely what that date should be, but it will probably be about 20 September 1999. Does everyone get £100? No. The payment is supposed to be for a household containing a pensioner, so a one-pensioner household gets £100 and if there are two pensioners they are deemed to receive £50 each, but if there are more than two pensioners in a household, they all get £50. Married men who become eligible will get £50, but some couples could earn £150: if the wife was aged 60 or more and claiming a pension on 20 September last year but the husband was under 65, she will have got her £100.
Mr. Michael Jabez Foster (Hastings and Rye):
The hon. Lady's concern for pensioners living at home with their parents and for expats on the Costa Brava is extremely touching, but do not she and her party oppose the very fact of the £100 bonus in any event?
Miss McIntosh:
We would like to be in keeping with the law of the land and, where that law pertains to the European Union, we would probably have introduced the legislation sooner and caused much less concern to the constituents who are caught by it.
The hon. Member for Gravesham (Mr. Pond) mentioned comments made by our newly appointed shadow Chancellor, my right hon. Friend the Member for Kensington and Chelsea (Mr. Portillo), who also said last week that we face a serious brain drain. One category being directly affected by the rules at this time of year includes those people who are caught by another press release: IR35. My advice to constituents would be to subscribe to every single press release from every single Department to find out exactly how they will be covered by tax or social security provisions.
IR35 covers those who are by definition self-employed and do not have one permanent employer, but who--by the admission of the Paymaster General--will have slammed on to them for the first time a massive national insurance contribution. It would be deeply regrettable if that category of people were to up sticks and leave the United Kingdom because of IR35. Perhaps the Government will see fit to reverse their provisions this evening or in next month's Budget.
Valerie Davey (Bristol, West):
Will the hon. Lady give way on that point?
Miss McIntosh:
I am moving on now. The Secretary of State clearly stated this evening that it was the Government's wish to reduce child poverty, but only 30,000 of those lone parents who responded successfully to the Government's new deal for lone parents--only 5.9 per cent. of single parents invited to join the scheme--actually got jobs in the first full year, which ran from October 1998 to October 1999. Some 104,000 attended interviews, half of whom were mothers whose children were still too young but who had volunteered to join the scheme. That means that some 470,000 single parents on benefits with children over five are still eligible to join. I have heard no suggestions from the Government this evening that would reduce that figure, and the scheme has been singularly unsuccessful in achieving its aims.
Mr. Pond:
The latest figures suggest that 112,000 went for interview from October 1998, and that 89 per cent. decided to take up one of the options available and to participate in the new deal for lone parents. Does that not suggest that lone parents have a more generous approach to the new deal than does the hon. Lady?
Miss McIntosh:
My understanding is that I have given the most recent figures. As I mentioned earlier, more than 50,000 of those single parents whose children are still too young are desperate to get on the scheme, but they do not actually qualify.
Mr. Vernon Coaker (Gedling):
I was interested to note that the hon. Member for Vale of York (Miss McIntosh) said in her opening remarks that she opposed the increase of 75p in the basic state pension, because she disagrees with her Front-Bench colleagues on that point. They reaffirmed only a few minutes ago that that was not the policy of the Conservative party. I hope that the hon. Lady will point out that difference in any literature she sends to the pensioners in her constituency.
As always, the hon. Member for Northavon (Mr. Webb) made an interesting speech, but I was disappointed that he homed in on pensions and ignored some of the other uprating measures in the orders. The debate tonight has shown that the debate about social security is becoming more mature. The social security orders show the determination of the Government to move away from a
welfare state that encourages dependency to one that is more proactive and starts to tackle some of the problems of social exclusion.
My hon. Friend the Member for Gravesham (Mr. Pond) made the important point that it is argued that the way to tackle poverty is to put £5 on this benefit or £8 on that benefit, which may give rise to significant short-term popularity. We cannot take people out of poverty simply by paying them more in benefits. In many respects, the payment of benefits is seen to be everything in the culture of the welfare state, and other policies have not been considered in the round. I realise that the amounts of benefit are important, but it is misguided to argue that they are the way to tackle poverty. We need a greater debate about welfare reform in general, and it is in that context that the uprating orders should be considered.
Mr. Webb:
The hon. Gentleman makes a thoughtful and intelligent comment. For people of working age, what he says is obviously true. But for 80-year-old pensioners, welfare-to-work is irrelevant, and so are most things apart from cash income. The basic state income is not a handout but an entitlement. Does the hon. Gentleman not agree that it is a good mechanism for helping such people?
Mr. Coaker:
The hon. Gentleman makes a fair comment. My point is that the Government's policy of targeting the poorest pensioners for help is the right way forward, and addresses the issue of raising the income of people who need it. As the hon. Gentleman is no doubt aware, there are age-related additions to the minimum income guarantee. It is not a flat rate that is paid to people at the age of 65 and then remains the same--it rises. In my view, that answers the hon. Gentleman's point about the need to provide more income for today's pensioners.
My general point is that the debate is about not just pensions but a whole range of other issues. We should not consider the social security uprating orders in isolation; the Government are introducing a range of reforms and measures to attack the issue. I refer to the new deal, the minimum wage, the working families tax credit and a whole range of other measures to tackle social exclusion, reduce dependency and drive home the attack on poverty that is so important.
This is a difficult debate to engage in, and no doubt many hon. Members who meet pensioners in their constituencies, as I do in mine, will agree. I believe that the Government's policy to target resources on the poorest pensioners is absolutely right. The problem with this debate is that it regards pensioners as a homogenous group of people. That is the myth that drives social policy in this area, and it is not true. Pensioners are not a homogenous group; they are not even, as was the case a few years ago, the poorest group in society. Some pensioners are rich and prosperous, there is a middle group and there are poor pensioners. We must ensure that we do something to address the needs of different groups of pensioners. The Government are attempting to do that, and this debate is starting to do it.
For the more prosperous pensioners, the Government's attempts to help by providing tax cuts on their income and on much of their savings will produce a real increase in income. I remind the House that people who have large occupational pensions, or who have occupational pensions at all, have them at cost to the state. While they have been
accruing their occupational rights, they have paid lower rates of national insurance than other people, and so have their employers. That is quite right, because it has been part of an attempt to encourage people to have occupational pensions. We have made concessions for richer pensioners.
The minimum income guarantee is about trying to help those who are particularly poor, many of whom are pensioners. I am sick of seeing poverty among pensioners. I passionately believe that it is not necessarily right to give an across-the-board increase to all pensioners, because I want more money that would go to rich pensioners to go instead to the poor. That argument is not popular, and many of us have been attacked for defending that principle. However, the new Labour Government were elected to help the poorest, and we do not deny our roots by arguing that case. It is fully consistent with the values of the Labour party to say that we must give more income to those who struggle desperately to make ends meet.
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State discussed the huge increases of, for single pensioners, £8, and, for couples, £12.60. If that represents for poorer pensioners a bigger increase than they would have received from an across-the-board rise, I am in favour of it. That is absolutely right. I do not want to be seen as a sycophant, but I should add that we cannot do everything at once. The changes before us are part of a package, and I am convinced that the Government's forthcoming policy announcements will address justifiable concerns affecting the middle group of pensioners over the coming year.
The hon. Member for Northavon and my hon. Friend the Member for Gravesham said that we need to examine capital allowances. I am confident that the Government will produce proposals to do something about allowances which have not been changed since 1998. In addition, I am sure that the Government will consider disregards relating to small occupational pensions and their effects on the minimum income guarantee.
It is surely right to target money on those in the most desperate poverty. I do not believe it wrong for a Labour Government to tell prosperous people who have benefited from occupational pensions and well-paid jobs that our priority is the poorest pensioner. We must get extra money to those who are trying desperately to make ends meet. If that means targeting help, that is what we must do.
We should remind all pensioners of exactly what the Government have done. We have reduced value added tax on fuel; introduced winter fuel payments; restored free eye tests; and granted free television licences for those aged over 75. We must move away from the "Yes, but" culture that says, "Yes, you have done this, but what about that?" The Government are making real progress with pension reforms. They are trying to get more money to the poorest pensioners and to achieve a fairer deal for pensioners across the board.
Over the year to come, we shall see real reductions in the prices that pensioners pay for gas, electricity and water, and they will make a real difference.
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