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7.4 pm
The Minister of State, Department of Social Security (Mr. Jeff Rooker): I believe that--other than at today's Question Time--this has been the first time that the hon. Member for Beckenham (Mrs. Lait) has replied to a debate since being given her new portfolio.
Mrs. Lait: It was the first time in the House.
Mr. Rooker: Yes. It has reminded me of when my right hon. and noble Friend Lord Orme first allowed me a run at the Dispatch Box. It was in a social security debate, but at a low-key moment, after 10 o'clock at night, so that it would not matter if things went wrong.
We have had a very interesting debate. Although there is no way in which I shall be able to reply to all the points made by hon. Members, I shall try to reply to some of them.
Some thoughtful speeches--some short and thoughtful, others long and thoughtful--have been made, and the Government have been asked many questions, not to
mention the four issues that were raised by Liberal Democrat Members, who will be voting against the uprating.
I tell Liberal Democrat Members now that, when the general election comes, it will be no good complaining that every Labour candidate is highlighting how the Liberal Democrats voted at the end of this debate. Liberal Democrat Members will be voting against an increase in child benefit, in disability benefit and in pensions, and no amount of pontificating outside the Chamber--[Interruption.] No. In the heat of a general election, when Liberal Democrat Members try to explain to local journalists the rules and procedures of the House, it will not wash. The message will get across that they simply voted against the increases.
I shall deal with the speeches in reverse order. My hon. Friend the Member for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn), who--I know; he told me them--had extremely good reasons for not attending the early part of the debate, made a point on overseas pensioners and expatriates. The point was dealt with earlier today. I believe that £300 million was mentioned as the sum necessary to address the issue as some hon. Members would like it addressed. Frankly, we have other and better ways of spending £300 million. Before people leave the country, they fully know the rules on how pensions are uprated around the world. There is no secret about the countries with which we have international treaties. International treaties are the main factor, and there really should not be any argument about that.
I made my second intervention on the speech of the hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. George) because I felt that I owed him an apology for the way in which I made my first intervention, on his point on attendance allowance. I misunderstood the point that he was making. He was rightly raising the serious issue of attendance allowance take-up. All the evidence shows that take-up of the allowance by pensioners is not as great as research indicates that it should be. However, it is difficult to target attendance allowance, and we certainly could not run the same type of targeting campaign as we shall soon be running on the minimum income guarantee. For a start, attendance allowance is not means-tested. The reasons for low take-up in the two benefits are not the same.
Ignorance is one element in low take-up of attendance allowance. Some pensioners may think, "I'm a pensioner; I can't get attendance allowance," but that is not correct. I have come across cases in which people in the medical profession think that pensioner patients are not eligible. It is simply not true.
There is scope for working on take-up of attendance allowance--which is one way of getting money to the pensioner population. The allowance is not means-tested; based on circumstances, it is theirs as of right. I agree entirely that there is work to do on the issue.
The hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire (Mr. Kirkwood), who is Chairman of the Social Security Committee, made a long and thoughtful speech--which is not a criticism. I shall not drop myself in problems, but at the end of his speech, he concentrated on earnings limits and gave two examples, one of which was the long-standing £50 earning limit for those receiving invalid care allowance.
On Friday, I raised that very issue both with constituents, and--strangely enough, in the context of the national minimum wage--on a live radio phone-in, in
the midlands. A husband rang up about his wife, who was the carer, but was also doing a little job on the side that she wanted to continue doing. The caller said that many of the people with whom his wife worked benefited from the minimum wage. Although that is a real plus, ultimately, to continue receiving the allowance, the wife would have to cut her hours.
With a £50 threshold, the danger is that one might have to cut hours to such an extent that an employer will say, "If you can work only 13 hours, don't bother coming in--it's not worth it." Earning limits for carers are a real issue.
The Government wish to encourage carers, and we have long wished to enable people to remain in their own homes for longer than they have hitherto been able to. Accomplishing both those goals is part of the difficulty of giving an early response to the royal commission. Nevertheless, we shall give that response by this summer. Although there is nothing new in those comments on earnings limits, the hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire raised the issue, and it is an absolutely valid one.
My hon. Friend the Member for Gedling (Mr. Coaker) made a robust and honest speech. I should like to think that he might have done what I have done when faced with 200 or 300 quite angry and vociferous pensioners. I have said, "Hands up anyone here living on £66.75." To date, no one has put their hands up. I am talking about big groups, one of which had been addressed by my noble Friend Baroness Castle, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn), Jack Jones and Rodney Bickerstaffe; there were seven or eight of them. I was the last to do so.
I made it a central point that we were targeting our resources on the poorest pensioners in the land. There is an issue about who is being missed out--hence the research. We cannot be certain about the figures. There is a broad spread of figures; they come from the general household survey. We do not know where those people are. It is not as precise as the hon. Member for Northavon (Mr. Webb) says. We have an idea, and that will be part of our take-up campaign.
These people may, in the main, live in other people's households. The chances are that they will not be single and living alone in their own household; otherwise we would have, if you like, caught them by now, or they would have needed the extra help. That, too, will be part of our take-up campaign.
Following the Benefits Agency work, we estimate that the figure is a little over 2 million. Those people will be targeted in three tranches anyway. There will be television and press advertising. We will make an early announcement about the way in which we intend to go forward; we certainly will make the announcement before the end of this month. There will then be a large Government-sponsored take-up campaign, with a telephone national line and television advertising.
The work has been done, in the sense that we have seen the scripts and literature, with "minimum guarantee" on leaflets and drafts. At present, there are no posters or leaflets with minimum income guarantee on them. There are no documents, but there will be: we have seen the proofs. To that extent, we are on the verge of being able to launch that campaign. It is important that we get the money to the people who deserve it.
Several hon. Members raised the issue of winter fuel payments. Some said thanks, but not many. They said, "It is nice to have it, but it should have been on the pension." That was not the option. Everyone knows that. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor has made it clear that we have to pay it every year from now on. That is a big advance. Payment went up fivefold. Because of European Court judgments, it will be paid to men and women aged 60. That will change progressively as the retirement age goes up to 65--we make no secret of that.
The hon. Member for Vale of York (Miss McIntosh) was carping again, basically. I was aware of the press cuttings that she was reading from. It is true that, in trying to put it across that winter fuel payments were not tied to being a pensioner--they are not following that court judgment; they are tied to the age of 60-plus--I made that bold statement about every person in the country. Okay, I did not say that people in prison and people who were not 60 before the relevant date in September were excluded. All right hon. and hon. Members should know that. If we had not done it in that way, they would make another point.
Miss McIntosh:
Will the Minister give way?
Mr. Rooker:
I will not. We had the cut-off point of the date in September because we guaranteed to get the winter fuel cash in hand before Christmas. I regret to say that, with the old technology that we have inherited, it takes us a long time to do it; we have to have a long run-in to do the work. This year's date will probably be a similar one.
In the meantime, we have to do the work to find the people who, for the past two years, have missed out following the court judgment.
Miss McIntosh:
Will the Minister give way?
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