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7.52 pm
Mr. Paul Tyler (North Cornwall): I share with the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Lidington) the hope that there will be a fuller explanation from the Minister in a few minutes. I do not wish to delay him, so I shall be extremely brief.
It was unfortunate that, instead of putting options to the Opposition parties, the Government decided to proceed with one option because, as has been said, there are several. One would have been a guillotine motion, and Liberal Democrats would have resisted that firmly as being inappropriate. I hope, too, that the Conservatives would have recognised that as inappropriate to this measure, which is an issue of conscience on which we all believe that a free vote is appropriate. It would have been helpful if we had been given the opportunity to consider the Parliament Act procedure under which suggested amendments can be brought forward without pre-judging whether the Act could be used. It is unfortunate that we do not have such an opportunity
Issues still need to be discussed properly in both Houses, and I hope that there will be opportunities to do so. I hope that the debate on Second Reading will be as wide ranging as it should be. I hope in particular that Ministers will consider some of the issues that still cause concern, such as the abuse of a position of trust. There are anomalies that need to be cleared up. Even if they cannot be cleared up in the Bill, some assurance by the Minister introducing the Second Reading debate is desirable.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. Paul Boateng):
The motion tonight is a purely procedural one. The substance of the matter and the Bill to be considered on Second Reading on Thursday has been debated at length--exhaustively--with some good speeches from both sides and some that were, quite frankly, best forgotten. All in all, we have had an opportunity, time and again, to consider the substance of the debate and a settled view has been arrived at by the House, as hon. Members have said in this debate.
Let me outline briefly why we have alighted on this procedure. It is important, in so doing, to look briefly at the Bill's unhappy history, particularly at the sorry account of the treatment of these proposals in another place. In accordance with the Government's agreement, reached on the cases before the European Court of Human Rights of Sutherland and Morris, the House was given an opportunity to consider the equalisation of the age of consent as an amendment to the Crime and Disorder Bill as long ago as 22 June 1998. Concern was voiced in that debate about the need to protect young people from abuse of trust. Nevertheless, the House agreed the amendment, on a free vote, by 336 votes to 129. However, on 22 July, the amendment was rejected, on a free vote, in another place. When the Bill returned to the House on 28 July, my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary made it clear that we would not press the amendment but would reintroduce the legislation in the 1998-99 Session. The House then agreed not to reinstate the amendment in that Bill.
In accordance with that commitment, the Sexual Offences (Amendment) Bill was introduced on 16 December 1998, this time containing provisions on both the age of consent and on abuse of trust. The Bill was overwhelmingly supported by the House, on a free vote, on Second Reading, by 313 votes to 130. It was then considered in detail in Committee. There are some hon. Members present tonight who participated in that detailed and useful consideration, as a result of which an amendment was accepted which, if my memory serves me well, came initially from the Opposition. The Bill was considered in detail in Committee, including on the Floor of the House, for 12 hours and 56 minutes. On Third Reading, the Bill was passed by 281 votes to 82, and was sent to another place, where it was refused a Second Reading, again on a free vote, by 222 votes to 146.
We subsequently concluded that it was right to give Parliament a further opportunity to consider the issue. In response to a question tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Brentford and Isleworth (Ann Keen) on 23 July, my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary announced that the Government had, with the agreement of the applicants, sought a further extension of the European Court of Human Rights cases of Sutherland and Morris. As part of that application, we undertook to the court to reintroduce the Sexual Offences (Amendment) Bill this Session and said that, if necessary, the Parliament Acts would be used to secure its passage. That decision was reaffirmed in the Gracious Speech.
I have listened to the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Lidington), but tonight's motion can hardly have come as a surprise to him. The suggestion that this is in
some way a curtailment of the rights of Back Benchers does not bear examination. I think that, in the cold light of day, even he would accept that.
Mr. Simon Hughes (Southwark, North and Bermondsey):
I have two simple factual questions for the Minister. Can he confirm that, if the Bill goes through this House on Thursday and goes to the other place, his colleagues there will have a free vote on Second Reading? Can he also confirm that the Lords will then be free to look, for the first time, at the abuse of positions of trust provisions if they want to?
Mr. Boateng:
These are all matters of conscience; they are matters for a free vote. It is not for me to speak of what will occur in the other place--that would be presumptuous.
Mr. Tyler:
Go on--why change the habits of a lifetime?
Mr. Boateng:
Do not tempt me--I must resist. The tradition has been that these should be seen as matters of conscience.
In bringing the Bill back before Parliament, we have made it clear that we will resort to the Parliament Acts 1911 and 1949 if another attempt is made in another place to reject the Bill. We do not do that lightly. We understand that beliefs on the age of consent are strongly held, and we respect them. However, the Parliament Acts exist for a reason--to resolve disputes between the two Houses, such as the present one, in which the will of the elected House has been repeatedly frustrated by the unelected Chamber.
The view of the House of Commons has been clear on every occasion on which the issues of the Bill has been debated. If it receives on Thursday the same overwhelming endorsement that it won in the previous Session, the repeated expressed will of the elected representatives of the people must ultimately prevail, in a democracy, over that of the unelected Chamber.
Dr. Evan Harris (Oxford, West and Abingdon):
The right hon. Gentleman said a moment ago that he did not wish to be tempted, but I should like to draw him slightly forward because I proposed the amendment that the Government graciously accepted in the previous Session. Does he agree that the Bill is of precisely the type that could benefit if the other place agreed to hold a Committee stage, although, of course, the other place must not ultimately reject the Bill or delay its passage?
Mr. Boateng:
No, I shall not be tempted. My experience of the hon. Gentleman tells me that it unwise ever to be tempted by him on anything.
Let me deal briefly with the constitutional principles surrounding use of the Parliament Acts. The hon. Member for Aylesbury suggested that our use of the Acts was some sort of innovation. It is not so; the War Crimes Act 1991 was a similar issue of conscience and morality on which different views were honestly held and persuasive arguments made on both sides. In that case, the Conservative Administration saw no constitutional impediment to using the Parliament Acts to enforce the will
of the House of Commons to enact a Bill on which there had been a free vote in both Houses. It is the same with the Sexual Offences (Amendment) Bill.
The hon. Gentleman suggested that the other House would be free to consider any amendment that we might choose to attach to the Bill, under what he described as the "suggestions" procedure. We see no need to offer suggested amendments. We take the view that the Bill was thoroughly considered and amended during the previous Session, and we see no need for further amendment. The House thought it appropriate to send the Bill to the other place, and we believe that we should send it again. Between that date and this, nothing has changed that would affect the provisions then agreed. Of course, it remains open to the House of Lords to suggest any amendment. The Bill would then return to this place for our consideration.
Against that background, I commend the procedural motion. The principles of the Bill are clear. It was considered exhaustively by the House during the previous session. We spent 23 hours and 15 minutes considering it. We do not need the formality of Committee or Report stages; nor do we need another Third Reading debate. The motion provides that no order should be made for the Bill's committal in the event of its receiving a Second Reading, and that it should be read the Third time with the Question being put forthwith, and decided, if opposed,
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
"after the expiration of time for opposed business."
The Bill deals with serious issues, but those issues have been repeatedly and exhaustively aired. No new issues have been raised in the Bill, which is identical to that sent to the other place in the previous Session. However, the House will have the opportunity on Thursday to discuss the substantive issue and to give its opinion on the Bill. We shall hear a wide range of opinion on the matter. If, as I am sure that it will, the House continues to believe that the Bill should proceed, that should happen as soon as possible without any need for additional and fruitless stages. I commend the motion to the House.
That, if the Sexual Offences (Amendment) Bill be read a second time, no Order shall be made for the committal of the Bill and it shall be ordered to be read a third time upon a future day; and upon a Motion being made for Third Reading the Question thereon shall be put forthwith and may be decided, though opposed, after the expiration of the time for opposed business.
7 Feb 2000 : Column 90
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