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Mr. Christopher Gill (Ludlow): The right hon. Gentleman says that he is wholly committed to the Bill and to making buggery legal for people aged over 16. For the benefit of those of us who have led a sheltered life, will he describe the act of buggery so that the House, and the public who are listening to the debate, know exactly what we are talking about?
Mr. Straw: No, I shall not accept the invitation offered by the hon. Gentleman. I wonder whether he understands how much he is detached from opinion throughout the country. Our society should be celebrated for the tolerance that it shows to people who lead a law-abiding life. People want to be allowed to live in peace, within the framework of the law. I happen to be heterosexual, but I could have been born homosexual, or I could have become homosexual. If that had happened, why should I be penalised and subject to the prejudice and abuse that the House has just heard from the hon. Gentleman?
Mr. Straw: No, I shall not give way. The hon. Gentleman asked me an emotive question and I have replied. He is unwise--simply as regards his representation of his constituents, who are light years away from his intolerance and prejudice--to utter such opinions.
Mr. Graham Brady (Altrincham and Sale, West) rose--
Mr. Straw: I need to make some progress. I have already given way several times and many other Members want to speak in the debate.
The Bill provides a new offence of abuse of trust. We have already referred to that matter, which is also an important child protection measure. We were considering it as long ago as 1998, when the amendment on equalising the age of consent was tabled to the Crime and Disorder Bill. My hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Ashton) moved an amendment to create such an offence. When the equalisation amendment was rejected in the other place, we undertook urgently to consider such an offence. That resulted in the measures in the present Bill, introduced last year.
The House will recall that we looked at the new offence in great detail in this place a year ago. Amendments were made to strengthen it; most significantly, following arguments made by Opposition Members, for the increase of the maximum penalty from two to five years. It is in the Bill in the form that we approved after those detailed discussions.
Mr. Joe Ashton (Bassetlaw):
My right hon. Friend referred to the discussions held in Standing Committee. During the 10 hours of debate on the Bill, one of the matters that was often raised was the growing menace of pimps and the abuse suffered by 15 or 16-year-old girls and boys who were hooked on drugs. The conclusion was that the penalties for such abuse were not severe enough. We were told that it would not be practical to deal with the matter under this Bill, but an assurance was given that a sexual offences Bill would be drawn up to tackle the problem and alter the penalties. However, there seemed to be no mention of that in the Queen's Speech. Will my hon. Friend give us some information on that point?
Mr. Straw:
It is true that there is no such legislation in this Session on the pimping offences described by my hon. Friend. I ask him to bear in mind that the Home Office is carrying a third of the whole legislative programme and that even that great Department of State has limits in its capacity to deal with that, in addition to other matters. I can reassure him, however, that offences relating to pimping and the penalties for such offences are being considered under the review of sexual offences that the Minister of State, Home Office, my right hon. Friend the Member for Brent, South (Mr. Boateng), is undertaking.
Dr. Brian Iddon (Bolton, South-East):
Will my right hon. Friend consider an anomaly that could arise in the future? The names of men who have already been convicted of private consensual sex with a 16 or 17-year-old will have been placed on the sex offenders' register. That will extend beyond the enactment of the Bill, and is unjust. Does my right hon. Friend have the power to remove those names from the register when--as we hope--the Bill is enacted?
Mr. Straw:
I understand my hon. Friend's concern, but I cannot give him comfort on that point. We cannot retrospectively remove names from the register; that is the obverse of the principle that we do not make criminal offences retrospective. If someone has been convicted of a criminal offence, I do not think that we can rewrite history to suggest that, by virtue of a decision of the House--later than the conviction--such a conviction should be deleted.
The offence of abuse of trust is targeted to protect young people, both girls and boys, who are most at risk or most vulnerable, or where the position of trust is strongest. The circumstances are closely defined to include matters such as residential care, detention and hospitals. They also include full-time education, given the special status of teachers and their well-established position of trust.
Abuse of trust may also occur in less well-defined circumstances, such as leisure, sporting or religious activities. In those cases, the position of trust may be less
strong, the circumstances less clearly defined, and the young person may be less vulnerable. Nevertheless, those points cause concern.
The Government have tackled that problem in two ways. First, the Bill includes an order-making power, so that the House can extend the scope of the new offence at a later date by affirmative resolution, if there is evidence of need. Secondly, on 17 September last year we issued all organisations that deal with young people with guidance on how to prevent abuse of trust. There has been a good response to that.
Mr. Gerald Howarth (Aldershot)
rose--
Jackie Ballard (Taunton)
rose--
Mr. Straw:
I shall give way to the hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Howarth) and the hon. Member for Taunton (Jackie Ballard), and then I shall conclude my speech.
Mr. Howarth:
I am grateful to the Home Secretary for his courtesy in giving way.
If the right hon. Gentleman will not accept that his claim to protect children wholly flaws the Bill--the argument put by my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest, West (Mr. Swayne)--will he agree that the abuse of trust protection, which he alleges he has put in the Bill, is inadequate? Will he tell the House how he would deal with a situation in which, for example, an 18-year-old prefect in a boys boarding school made advances to a 16 or 17-year-old boy? The prefect would have a position of some power--as a prefect. What protection is offered to children in those circumstances? The measure is disgraceful; it will completely undermine child protection.
Mr. Straw:
It is not possible to draft a Bill that would cover every conceivable circumstance. The Bill deals with adults who hold positions of trust in relation to young people aged between 16 and 18.
I do not know much about the hon. Gentleman's background. I attended an all-male boarding school in Essex. Even at a time when the full force of the criminal law applied, circumstances such as those he described were not unheard of in such institutions.
Jackie Ballard:
I thank the Home Secretary for giving way.
The right hon. Gentleman listed several organisations that support the Bill. The list did not include any of the teachers' unions. Although those unions support the equalisation of the age of consent, they are opposed to abuse of trust provisions. They believe that such abuse of trust, which we all decry, can be properly dealt with under the profession's disciplinary codes. They do not want it to become a criminal offence for a specific profession.
Mr. Straw:
I understand the position of the teachers' unions, but I do not agree with it. It is very hard to argue that those who are in a position of trust, for example, in a children's home, should be subject to the criminal law, but those who are in the position of trust and power--very considerable power--that is exercised by teachers in respect of sixth-formers as well as of younger children--
Jackie Ballard:
What about the power of Members of Parliament over researchers?
Mr. Straw:
It is a matter of proportion and circumstance. However, I do not think that one can argue
Let me deal briefly and in conclusion with two important issues concerning the Bill. First, I remind the House that the Parliament Acts may have to be used in this case, and it is because they may have to be used that I invite the House--it is a matter for the House--to pass the Bill in an unamended form.
The second issue concerns the impact of the Scotland Act 1998 in respect of this measure. That has created what may be a unique constitutional dilemma for the Bill, as the Scottish elements fall into an area that is now properly the responsibility of the Scottish Parliament. The Scottish Executive therefore requested the Scottish Parliament to consider its position on the Bill. The terms of the motion moved by the Scottish Executive were as follows:
"That the Parliament endorses the principles of equalising the age of consent for homosexual and heterosexual activity and creating a new criminal offence of breach of trust as set out in the Sexual Offences (Amendment) Bill considered by the UK Parliament in the 1998-99 parliamentary session and agrees that the UK Parliament should consider any Bill introduced in the same terms in the current session."
The Scottish Parliament debated that motion in great depth on 19 January 2000. It focused on the principles and content of the Bill and on the constitutional issue. I am delighted to report that it endorsed the motion fully, by 90 votes to 16. That was an overwhelming vote in favour of the Bill. The Scottish Parliament has therefore made it clear that it wants to end intolerance, prejudice and discrimination. It wants the added protections to be put in place. It sees the Bill as unfinished business, delayed because of the prejudice of the other place. It has given us a clear mandate to finish the business, as it should have been finished last year.
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