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Lorna Fitzsimons (Rochdale): Will the hon. Lady give way?
Miss Widdecombe: No, I am going to finish my sentence. If the hon. Lady interrupts me again, I will not give way until I have done that. That is the score, so she can choose.
If the Government have their way, not only will 16-year-olds be able to engage in homosexual acts, but local authorities will be able to use public money actively to promote such activity. That point changes the context of the Bill and merits consideration by the House and a wider debate. Therefore, it merits a rather more generous attitude to the Bill's further stages than the Home Secretary has shown.
Lorna Fitzsimons:
I thank the right hon. Lady for giving way, and I apologise for not describing her as "right hon." when I asked to intervene.
The right hon. Lady makes her argument, but surely an argument is based on fact. Will she at least admit that, when she was given two opportunities by her colleagues to identify facts that would back up her argument, she failed to do so? She expresses her personal opinion, but there is no hard evidence--figures, prosecutions or any other data--for her view that the Bill is a dangerous move.
Miss Widdecombe:
The Bill is a dangerous move because it removes a vital measure of protection for young people from those very young people.
Miss Widdecombe:
There is an embarrassment of riches to choose from, but they all hold the same view. I give way to my hon. Friend in blue.
Mrs. Teresa Gorman (Billericay):
On the point that the hon. Member for Rochdale (Lorna Fitzsimons) raised, and in response to the two questions asked by my hon. Friends the Members for Rutland and Melton (Mr. Duncan) and for Buckingham (Mr. Bercow), has not the growth of HIV and AIDS in the past couple of decades been very great? Are we not reasonably entitled to believe that the vast majority of cases are among the homosexual population, as I will argue if I have the opportunity to speak later? That is an example of the downside of such measures, and I hope that that point will be dealt with at length in the debate.
Miss Widdecombe:
Indeed, that point is a consideration and I look forward to my hon. Friend expanding on it. I also quote the view that I have received from many teachers and others who say that although some 16 year-olds may be ready to make such decisions, many more are not and they deserve the right to a degree of protection.
Ms Oona King (Bethnal Green and Bow):
Will the right hon. Lady give way?
Miss Widdecombe:
I will, because I did not do so earlier when she and a number of other hon. Members rose.
Ms King:
I thank the right hon. Lady for her graciousness in giving way. Does she agree that if young
Miss Widdecombe:
If the hon. Lady had listened to what I said a moment ago, she will have heard me address that point. I do not think that we give adequate protection to young girls. I have come across in my surgery parents of under-age girls involved in liaisons with older men. Those parents find it very difficult to get the police, the statutory services and everyone else to take that seriously as a criminal act. The point that I made was that there is an extra dimension in the case of young men, who take decisions that might put them permanently outside the mainstream way of life. The hon. Lady may disagree with me, but that is my point. I shall now make progress with the rest of my argument.
We must consider not just the possibility of those in a position of trust abusing their position to take advantage of young people as a result of the reduction in the age of consent, but the likelihood of young people being exposed to, and engaging in, homosexual acts at an age at which they are particularly vulnerable. I am surprised at the attitude of Labour Members--and, to some extent, of those on the Benches behind me--which dismisses the issue of vulnerability and the serious issues that arise from the Bill, even to the point of not allowing further examination of the adequacy of the abuse of trust clause. That is extremely serious. Notwithstanding what happened in the other place recently, the House must consider whether it is right and proper to introduce the two measures concurrently. It is very significant that the Government will probably have to apply the Parliament Act to both measures because those in the other place are vastly more in tune with the wishes of parents and with public opinion than are the Government.
What is being proposed today sends the wrong message to our communities, to teachers and to parents. Most of all, it sends entirely the wrong message to the young people of this country.
Mr. Brady:
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way, not least because the Home Secretary would not allow me to make this point during his speech. Is it not regrettable that although the Home Secretary rightly regards this issue as a matter of conscience for the House, he claims that it is a matter of prejudice when it is debated in the other place?
Miss Widdecombe:
Indeed, and it is significant that the Home Secretary probably also considers that everybody who disagrees with him on this issue has a bad case of prejudice, instead of realising that there are extremely serious arguments against what is being proposed and that it is our young people who will suffer if those arguments are not fully tested.
The House should particularly consider whether the offence of abuse of trust will be an adequate safeguard. As my hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere (Mr. Clappison) said on Third Reading in the previous Session, there is widespread concern that the definition of a position of trust may not be broad enough. Regrettably, because the Government are driven by the need to apply
the Parliament Act to the Bill, and because of the procedural motion passed on Monday, there will be no opportunity for hon. Members to examine that proposition further.
In the Bill's explanatory notes, the Government say that they expect the offence will
I would hope that the Home Secretary, having made much of the new offence and having accepted in the previous Session the arguments for increasing the maximum sentence from two to five years, would assure the House that the police and the Crown Prosecution Service will be actively encouraged to prosecute where necessary.
I said that we do not at present accord sufficient protection to young girls. That is very much due to the absence of will to prosecute and to take measures to protect them. I hope that if we pass the Bill, we will not make the same mistake in respect of young boys.
I recognise that the new offence will provide at least some small safeguard, but I doubt that it is adequate. [Interruption.] I am sorry that the Home Secretary cannot pay any attention to what I am saying. I am talking to the House, but hoping that he will listen, about the adequacy of the abuse of trust provisions.
Mr. Straw:
My reply to the right hon. Lady is that the provisions are adequate, as I sought to explain.
Miss Widdecombe:
The right hon. Gentleman may have been explaining it to his hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Withington (Mr. Bradley), but he has not explained it to me and he has not listened to my points.
I remain convinced that it would not be right further to reduce the age of consent for homosexual acts when the Government are intent on repealing section 28. The case for further change has not been made today. Those are my views.
Ms Claire Ward (Watford):
Will the right hon. Lady give way?
Hon. Members must use their individual conscience and judgment. I cannot support the Bill. I know that serious issues are arising for young people. This is not a theoretical debate about equality, but a question of how we best protect vulnerable youngsters and ensure that every young person has protection in law against being encouraged to engage in activity that could lead to permanent exclusion from a mainstream way of life.
I am sorry that that strikes no chord with Labour Members. It strikes an immense chord with the many parents who have written to me or visited me and made representations that they feel there is a rush for political correctness that does not take into account the needs of young people and the realities that they face.
2.55 pm
Ann Keen (Brentford and Isleworth):
I am grateful for the comments made by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary about the history behind this legislation, including events in 1994, and in 1998 and 1999, since I have been a Member of the House. We are now in another century. I commend my Government and other colleagues for their support on the crucial issue of the age of consent and equality for young people. I commend my friends on the Opposition Benches who have--bravely, in the present political climate--spoken out on the subject.
The right hon. Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Miss Widdecombe) referred at the end of her speech to political correctness. The Opposition seem to regard true political correctness to be intolerance, prejudice and discrimination, and would like that reflected in the law of the land. I have to tell the right hon. Lady that, thankfully, we have become a much more tolerant, progressive society, and will continue to progress. All political parties will continue to strive for greater tolerance.
We are all aware of the bombings that took place last summer in Brixton, Brick lane and, of course, in Soho. None of us could have failed to be shocked, angered and disbelieving that any person could willingly harm members of our community who are considered to be in the minority and different from the norm. We are talking about human beings. We must value all human life equally.
Life was going on that night in Old Compton street. Friends and family--gay and straight--were out for the evening. Some were celebrating a wedding and, sadly, one of the deceased was celebrating the expected birth of a child. They were all enjoying the opportunity to go out and mix on a warm summer night. I know that many colleagues visit those places. I frequently visit all parts of London and enjoy a social life with hon. Friends and, occasionally, colleagues on the Opposition Benches. I often go out with my family and friends. I have referred to a diverse section of society, but it is truly representative of society in this country today.
That bombing sent out shockwaves that were felt by organisations such as Stonewall. They received comments of sympathy, but of course other comments were voiced in the extreme language that people feel entitled to use when there is any inequality in the law. There were cowards who talked of the pleasure that the bomb had caused them. Sadly, I have personal experience of that because a spineless coward who phones me and leaves messages on my answering machine asked me that day whether I would like to come and collect some arms and legs.
We all come across intolerance. We all have to be brave at times and make sure that our friends, neighbours and colleagues are accepted in our society because they are human beings, they are equal and they give to this country, whether through their job, through their academic work or through the way in which they choose to live their life. The public services that acted so bravely after the Soho bombing and the bombings at Brixton and Brick lane--the police, the fire service, the ambulance service, paramedics and health workers in the hospitals--included both gay and straight members among their staff, all offering their knowledge and expertise in dealing with a tragedy.
I was overwhelmed by the messages that were received, particularly from the Prime Minister and the Queen. Together with the Minister of State, Home Office, my right hon. Friend the Member for Brent, South (Mr. Boateng), I visited Soho square. Many of us attended church services. Many religious organisations came together to say how wrong the act was.
"act more as a deterrent than result in a large number of actual prosecutions."
Is that a hint that the Government will not seek to prosecute in some instances of abuse of trust? The sharpest deterrent of all would be a guarantee of prosecution where trust had been abused.
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