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Mrs. Gorman: I, too, am quoting from statistics produced by the Public Health Laboratory Service. Dr. Nicoll points out that of the currently diagnosed cases among heterosexuals in this country, only 6 per cent.-- 62 of the individuals concerned--have contracted that dreadful disease in this country. The great majority of people are from the sub-continent of Africa. The disease
there is pandemic. We all know that, but the impression given by the publicity is that the disease is growing among the indigenous population in this country--the heterosexual population--and that is not true.
Lorna Fitzsimons: I cautiously say that I am sure that I misunderstood the hon. Lady when she said that it was an imported epidemic from Africa. The fact is that it is growing in the heterosexual community throughout the world. We are an international community--everyone travels.
The bottom line is that when people continue to perpetrate the myth that it is a gay plague, they allow every person who is heterosexual and about to embark on their first heterosexual experience to think that it is all right not to practise safe sex. Sadly, that is one of the reasons why people are naively led into unsafe sexual practices which lead to the rise in the AIDS epidemic. Can we therefore at least recognise one principle and fact in this Chamber--namely, that we are all prey to diseases when we practise unsafe sex and that it has nothing to do with sexuality?
Ms Oona King:
Does my hon. Friend agree that ignorance comes not just from hon. Members? A leader in the Daily Mail the week before last said that one of the reasons for keeping section 28 was because, otherwise, young people might not be taught that marriage helps to protect them from AIDS. That is not just ignorant; it is criminal and dangerous to encourage children down that route.
Lorna Fitzsimons:
I would be interested to find out from the statistics how many married people have AIDS. The truth is that we need to expound the myth. More heterosexuals than homosexuals have AIDS. The bottom line is that it is a disease that affects us all, so we should stop scapegoating. I thought that we had got rid of that idea a decade ago; I genuinely did. I am shocked to hear it raised in the Chamber.
I ask the Home Secretary to reconsider the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton, South-East (Dr. Iddon) raised with him. I want to make it clear that it is not, as it appeared from the Home Secretary's response, about repealing the conviction retrospectively, which no one--including, I understand, the Bolton Seven--is asking for. The point is that, because of the law as it stands now, they are on the sexual offences register. If the Bill is enacted, as I hope it will be, they will be on the register for something that is no longer illegal--consenting sex with a 17-year-old. Therefore, we ask for a review of people on the register because of the unequal age of consent. The issue is purely about those who have entered consensual sexual practices.
Mr. David Borrow (South Ribble):
Does my hon. Friend agree that we need to separate the punishment for the crime, which is the sentence meted out by the court, from a measure that is meant to safeguard the public, which is what the register of sexual offences is for? There is some confusion in the Home Office about what the punishment is and what the public protection is.
Lorna Fitzsimons:
I agree. I thank my hon. Friend for putting it so clearly. We all share those concerns about
Mr. John Bercow (Buckingham):
I have changed my mind on this subject, and I owe it to myself, the House and my constituents to explain why. The words "I was wrong" do not readily trip off my tongue, but that is what I believe. I think I was mistaken to vote for the status quo last time, and I intend to vote for the Bill, for reform and, I think, for progress.
But before I explain to the House my thinking--and I hope that the House will be tolerant of my doing so--I should like to pick up on what my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Miss Widdecombe)--who, sadly, is not in her place--said in opening from the Opposition Front Bench. I greatly regret that she chose to establish a linkage between section 28 of the Local Government Act 1988 and this Bill. I say what follows not to break what consensus has already emerged in the debate or cause any offence. I recognise that some hon. Members feel strongly that section 28 should be removed. I believe that they are mistaken. I believe that we are right to support it. It has a valuable effect, and it would be a mistake to dispense with it. That is a matter for legitimate debate and argument, but it is wrong to link the two and imply that one must take the same line on both issues. There is no requirement whatsoever to do so.
I should also like to make it clear that, as I think the House will understand, regarding my right hon. Friend's references to political correctness, I have in no sense fallen prey to it. I abhor political correctness. I could not give a tinker's cuss as to the view of the European Court of Human Rights, and I view both the persona and the activities of Mr. Peter Tatchell with repugnance. So I hope that I shall be acquitted of the charge that I am in some sense a fellow traveller of the organisation OutRage!
On the contrary, I have just reflected upon the issues. It so happens that I am heterosexual, but I acknowledge a point that the hon. Member for Brentford and Isleworth (Ann Keen) made in her speech and the hon. Member for Rochdale (Lorna Fitzsimons) made in her powerful contribution, which is that I have homosexual constituents as well. The idea that they exist in every other constituency, but not in that of Buckingham, is preposterous. I have a proportion of homosexual constituents. They are human beings; they are civilised; they have rights and obligations as well. And I am duty bound to take account of their interests.
In essence, there are three main reasons why I feel impelled to vote tonight for change.
First, the status quo provides discrimination without benefit. I am not opposed to discrimination per se in the way in which I live my life. [Laughter] I am sorry that the hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Ms King) laughs. I shall try to explain what I mean. A discriminating person is somebody who exercises judgment, discretion and, not infrequently, wisdom. But it is a very different matter to have a statutory discrimination without benefit.
I listened intently, interestedly and respectfully to my right hon. Friend speaking from the Front Bench, but it was not at all clear to me what was the benefit that flowed and flows from the status quo. There is no evidence that the present law reduces the incidence of homosexual activity, minimises the spread of infection and increases the protection available to young people. None of these things is achieved by the present law. It seems to me that it has no beneficial purpose at all.
Indeed, the argument is stronger than merely that the present law has no beneficial purpose or effect. It is that many young people, possibly uncertain about their sexuality, or possibly knowing that they are homosexual, are discouraged by their being currently criminalised in law from seeking appropriate health advice from those in a position to provide it. It cannot be right that we simply ignore that fact.
The effect of present arrangements is that the statute book delivers a recipe for confusion, misery and fear. The onus of responsibility is on those who are defending the status quo to explain what benefits it confers upon us and what demerits would result from the Bill. My right hon. Friend's speech, I regret to say, failed to explain that.
The second argument in support of change is powerful, but one that some right hon. and hon. Members might think it curious to hear from me. I refer to the position in continental Europe. I yield to no one in my Euro-scepticism. As my right hon. and hon. Friends know, and as I have already made clear, I could not care less what the European Court of Human Rights thinks about this subject. But it would be absurd to ignore what happens in other countries, and the fact is that in Denmark, France, Greece, Poland and Sweden there is an equal age of consent, which happens to be 15. The House will be aware that in Germany the equal age of consent is now 16.
I challenge those who support the status quo and inveigh so violently against this relatively modest reform to prove that some damaging consequence flows from the different arrangements in those countries. If they could show that the incidence of homosexual activity was greater, that the spread of infection was bigger, that the protection for young people was weaker, they would have the kernel of an argument. They have not been able, at least to my satisfaction, to demonstrate anything of the kind. The position is no worse in those countries, as far as I can discern. Indeed, arguably the position in many other countries is far better than it is here.
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