House of Commons Hansard Debates for 10 Feb 2000 (pt 21)

Dr. Evan Harris (Oxford, West and Abingdon): The Liberal Democrats.

Mr. Bercow: I apologise to the hon. Gentleman, who intervened from a sedentary position, for not including the Liberal Democrats in the category of important organisations, but I am very happy to accept that he is a long-standing supporter of reform.

I counted no fewer than 13 organisations in my list. All of them believe that positive health benefits could flow from a change in the law, and that seems a good reason to consider making it.

I do not want to detain the House for much longer, because I am very conscious, first, that many hon. Members wish to contribute to the debate, and, secondly, of the substantial expertise on all sides of the House on this subject; expertise with which I do not pretend to compete. But I would make some concluding points.

First, some of my right hon. and hon. Friends occasionally give the impression that they are in favour only of homosexual activity between consenting males of 99 years of age, with the consent of both parents. That does not seem to me to be justified. I believe in tolerance. I believe in equality before the law. I also believe in freedom under the law, and it is with the concept of freedom, as well as with that of equality, that we are in this debate, I hope, concerned.

Mr. Gerald Howarth: Does my hon. Friend not appreciate the real risk that young, impressionable boys who are somewhat doubtful about their sexuality will be pressurised into adopting a course that they will regret later? Does he not accept that Parliament has a role to play in the protection of young people?

Mr. Bercow: I certainly believe that it is important for Parliament to protect people.

I once bought into my hon. Friend's argument, but since then I have been reading, I have been listening, and I have been conversing with people who know something about the subject, in my constituency and elsewhere. Now, I simply do not think that the argument is valid. There have been a plethora of studies, in this country and overseas, and the general conclusion seems to be that an individual is unlikely, as a result of an experience in his

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youth, to be propelled into a homosexual existence that would not otherwise have occurred. The Howard League for Penal Reform produced one of the most recent and penetrating reports on the subject, in 1985. I found it very persuasive.

Mrs. Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest): My hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Howarth) made a good point about the duty of Parliament to protect young people in all circumstances. Does my hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham (Mr. Bercow) think that making a young person a criminal will protect him in any way?

Mr. Bercow: Certainly not. I agree with my hon. Friend, whom I have heard expatiate on the subject before, that that is a recipe for misery and fear.

Mr. Duncan: It is counter-productive.

Mr. Bercow: It is indeed.

I am very conscious that, in speaking as I have done and in voting as I intend to do, I am almost certain to incur the wrath of many of the people whom I admire most in politics, and that I will be accompanied in the Lobby by some--not all--of the people whom I respect least in politics. However, I have a duty in this regard.

Ms Ward: The hon. Gentleman may have those fears, but I am sure I speak for many Labour Members when I say that, following what he has said so far, we shall look on him in an entirely new light. We only hope that he will not do this too often; if he does, we shall feel most uncomfortable in the future.

Mr. Bercow: I accept the hon. Lady's tribute in the spirit in which it was offered, but I hope that she will not overdo it. No doubt I have already inflicted massive political damage on myself, and I do not want to add to it.

Like other Members, I have received many letters on this subject--not many in the run-up to today's debate, but many over the past couple of years. Those letters expressed a variety of views. I will not assert that the majority favoured change; they probably did not, and certainly a majority of Conservative supporters were against it. However, I believe that if we spend years trying to get into this place, once we are here we should say what we think and vote with our conscience. For that reason, and on the basis of a conversion on my part because of the evidence, I will support the Bill's Second Reading.

3.54 pm

Mr. Bill Etherington (Sunderland, North): It is always a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Bercow), and his last words were particularly near and dear to me. I congratulate him on being humble enough to admit that he was wrong, and suggest that he should hang on to a copy of tomorrow's Hansard, which may well become a collector's item in years to come.

It is nice when someone introduces some levity to the Chamber--heaven knows, it is badly needed on occasion--but we are discussing a serious matter. I disagree with the hon. Member for Buckingham on one point: I feel that section 28 is linked with this debate.

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I say that because the Home Secretary's speech--not so much the content as the tone, which was based on humanity and compassion--was also near and dear to me.

Many of us, unlike the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes), were born in the early part of the last century. I cannot recall homosexuality being discussed in my home during my childhood, or in the various schools that I attended. Only as a teenage apprentice did I become aware of it. I did not have a sheltered upbringing; in fact, I grew up in rather a rough area.

When something is sprung on a person, that person will have difficulties. I was not a politician in those days; I was just like any other teenager, trying to learn and to find my way through a difficult time. I must be honest, and admit that I initially felt some distaste about homosexuality. My subsequent feelings, however, were perhaps more important. I had a sense almost of pity, of compassion, and, I hope, of understanding in relation to someone who did not belong to the flock--someone who was an outsider.

I must say in all honesty that I do not think I have met half a dozen homosexuals in my life, although I have read a lot about them and have heard people speak about the subject.

Ms Oona King: There are half a dozen on these Benches.

Mr. Etherington: I should be grateful if my hon. Friends would give me a count. It is good to get a bit of information.

One of the most poignant experiences that I have encountered was that of a couple with whom I became friendly when they were young. In their later days, they discovered that one of their children had homosexual tendencies. They were horrified, and found it difficult to cope. I felt immensely sympathetic. Like all decent parents, those people loved their child very much, and this was a big blow.

We have moved on tremendously in recent years, but we have not moved far enough. I pay tribute to the Government for noting the decision of the European Court of Human Rights to abolish discrimination against homosexuals in the armed forces: that was a big step forward. If this Bill is passed, that too will be a big step forward. In many ways, this issue is like the long march of Everyman: it goes on, and we hope that it gets better.

Unlike the contender for Back Bencher of the year, the hon. Member for Buckingham, I do give a tinker's cuss about Europe, and about the various organisations to which we have voluntarily signed up and in regard to which we have responsibilities and obligations. If I have a slight criticism of my Government in relation to the issue we are debating, it is this. The European Court of Justice made a decision about discrimination against those with a different sexual orientation in the armed forces. If we could put a three-line Whip on that, and if Government policy was to try to get it through, why have we suddenly returned to a free Vote when the European Court has made a decision that has led to today's debate? I do not see the logic: I do not understand the difference between the position today and the position just after the Christmas recess.

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