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4.35 pm
Jackie Ballard (Taunton): I think that most people would agree that the last time this subject was debated in this place, the most eloquent speech was made by the hon. Member for Witney (Mr. Woodward), who was then on the Conservative Benches. So far today, the most eloquent speech has come from the hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Bercow), although I suspect that he will not be following all the examples set by his former hon. Friend.
In the past three years, everything that could ever be said about sexual activity, sexual orientation or sexual offences has been said in this House and in the other place. However, this is the first time that I have taken part in such a debate. I will try hard not to repeat arguments that have already been made.
I strongly support the main provisions of the Bill, which will at last bring equal treatment and equal rights, at least in one respect, to my many gay and bisexual friends and constituents. I do not understand people who are obsessed with the sexual activities of others. We have all had letters from people who write in lurid detail, as have some of those who have spoken this week in the other place. I believe that it is no business of mine what consenting adults get up to in the privacy of their own homes, and I do not believe that the law should be interested in that either.
Mr. Robathan:
Will the hon. Lady give way?
Hon. Members:
He has only just got here.
Mr. Robathan:
As it happens, I was here at the beginning.
The hon. Lady talks about consenting adults. The whole point is that we are talking about children, as defined by the Children Act 1989 and the United Nation convention on the rights of the child. I am sure that she will acknowledge that.
Jackie Ballard:
It is strange that the hon. Gentleman seems to think that at the age of 16 girls are adults, but at the age of 16 boys are still children, unless he is arguing to raise the age of consent for everyone to 18. I suspect that that would not receive wide, if any, support.
Despite my general support for the Bill--and we have heard eloquent arguments about why we should support it--I believe that it leaves many unanswered questions. It does not go far enough in some areas and goes too far
in others. The main areas in which I disagree with the Government are the continuing unequal treatment of gay men and the continued discrimination against them in law. As I indicated in my earlier intervention on the Home Secretary, I also have serious misgivings about the abuse of trust provisions.
Let me deal first with the continuing unequal treatment of gay men. At present, heterosexuals involved in group sex commit no offence as long as it is done in private. However, even after the Bill becomes law, homosexuals will still be committing a criminal act if more than two people are present or if it is deemed to be public. It is clear discrimination when the law makes no such provision of an offence for heterosexuals. I am not asking for the law against gross indecency in public places to be relaxed, but we are discussing equal treatment under the law and equal rights. Therefore, should we not be equalising it in all respects, including the issue of group sexual activity? I hope that the Minister will respond to that point.
My main concerns are about the abuse of trust provisions. I do not take the line proposed by some Conservative Members that we should extend them to everyone. Many aspects of the provisions seem confused. A lot of people who speak in these debates say, "I am a parent, therefore I care more than everyone else." Well, I, too, am a parent, and I take it that we all have families of one sort or another, we all care about our children and other people's children, and we all want to make sure that they are not abused, their trust is not abused and a position of power is not abused. So I am sure that we all welcome the measures that are aimed at protecting children, particularly in residential homes and secure units, where they are especially vulnerable.
However, the provisions contain several anomalies. To check that I was not alone in being concerned about how the Bill applies to teachers, I spoke this week with representatives of four teaching unions in Somerset. Not all of them were new Labour or Liberal Democrat supporters; one, in fact, was a Conservative councillor. All opposed the new criminal offence of abuse of trust as it relates to teachers.
People may say, "They would say that, wouldn't they?" We may think that they have a vested interest. But those representatives made the point that everyone in the teaching profession is bound by a code of conduct that recognises that teachers are in a position of trust. If teachers have a consensual relationship with young adults in their care or under their supervision, they are likely to be abusing their position of trust and authority. Such behaviour can already result in disciplinary action by employers, including summary dismissal, having one's name entered on List 99 and the ending of a teaching career.
It is right to discipline a teacher for forming an abusive or exploitative relationship. However, in my view, in the view of the teaching unions, and, I think, in the view of many people when they think about how far the Bill will extend the law, it is not proportionate to the risk to go further and to determine that that is a criminal offence punishable by up to five years imprisonment.
The abuse of trust provisions were debated at length in Committee when the Bill was last discussed, although no such provisions were included when the age of consent was first debated under the Crime and Disorder Act 1998. The Home Secretary gave two reasons for the scope of the
Bill on abuse of trust. First, teachers act in loco parentis. Secondly, there would be practical difficulties in creating separate groups within education, such as those who teach day pupils at a school where there are also boarders, and that that would create invidious anomalies.
However, other people who act in loco parentis are not covered by the Bill. They include guardians, godparents, step-parents, church leaders, and scout and guide leaders. I am sure that we could think of many others who act in the same way and who are not covered. The Home Secretary referred to teachers' power over pupils in their care, but the Bill also extends to relationships teachers have with students who are at the same institution but not being taught by the teachers. In that case, there is no relationship of trust or power; the two people merely happen to be at the same institution.
However, the Bill does not include areas in which there is a clear relationship of power, such as that between a Member of Parliament and a young researcher, and that power could easily be abused. The same is true of the relationship between any employer and a young employee. The Bill allows for a young teacher to be prosecuted, convicted and registered as a sex offender for behaviour that might be less than sexual intercourse--"sexual activity" is what the Bill specifies, although it does not define the phrase. The same behaviour would not be an offence for a general practitioner or a Member of Parliament. That will place teachers in a vulnerable position. There will be a real danger of false allegations. The net result may be that even fewer young men take up teaching in future.
Dr. Harris:
I am sure that my hon. Friend is aware that the scope of the Bill is even wider than that. A 17-year-old at university--as is the case with the majority of first-year students in Scotland--may have a relationship with someone who teaches. That person may be a postgraduate student who does not teach the 17-year-old, but who would be committing an offence if any sexual activity took place. I ask my hon. Friend to prevail on the Government to rethink that provision.
Jackie Ballard:
My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and that is why I am taking the House's time today. We shall have no Committee stage in which to examine the matter further and raise issues that should worry anyone who examines the scope of the Bill.
When the NAS/UWT responded to the interdepartmental working group on preventing unsuitable people from working with children, it said that there should be a national register of all those who work with young people and children. I have raised that matter before, and I am sure that I shall do so again as chairman of the cross-party group on the campaign for the registration of workers with young people and children, which is supported by both Labour and Liberal Democrat Members of Parliament.
Abuse of trust or power is always wrong. However, we must ask whether it should be a criminal offence and, if it should, in what circumstances. Should the law single out a particular group of professionals for discrimination? I believe not. Other European countries have laws that try to deal with abuse of trust through age differences. For example, in Portugal it is illegal for someone aged over 18 to have a sexual relationship with someone aged under 18. It would be more appropriate to consider age
differences in relationships rather than individual professionals for our provisions on abuse of positions of power or trust.
I suspect that the Government are determined to go ahead with the Bill, but I ask the Home Secretary to reassure me that the Government will not encourage the House of Lords to defeat it so that they can invoke the Parliament Acts on an unaltered Bill. Instead, they could encourage the other place to vote in favour of the Bill--I know that there will be a free vote in the other place, just as there will be here, but I hope that the Government will signal their hope that the Bill will not be defeated--so that a Committee stage could be held there. Then, the abuse of trust provisions, which have never been examined in detail in the other place, could be properly debated.
I also urge the Home Secretary to make a commitment to review the provisions within a year or two after the General Teaching Council, which will strengthen professional codes of conduct, and the General Social Care Council come fully into operation. The Home Secretary referred earlier to orders that could extend the scope of the Bill. I hope that he might consider orders that could reduce its scope.
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