House of Commons Hansard Debates for 10 Feb 2000 (pt 31)

Ann Keen: I reiterate what I said about the use of language. Offensive language such as we have heard--if not too often in this debate, I am pleased to say, but on previous occasions and in another place--encourages and gives licence to people who feel that they can condone hatred, homophobia and even worse. People have been beaten and gay men have been murdered; they have been under attack and they are still under attack. When offensive language is used in a place like this, it gives licence to such behaviour. I have no intention of offending any Member, but I do not want any Member to offend any member of the public and families outside.

Mr. Lidington: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for, at least, making her position her clear. I agree with her to the

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extent that, in seeking to express strongly held views, we should all use language that does not inflame unreasonable passion and provoke violent and undemocratic action.

My second point applies to several comments made today. There was too ready an attempt to dismiss simply as bigotry or outmoded thoughts the views that are held not just by those of us in the Chamber who oppose the Bill, but by a large section of opinion in the country. We can swap figures about opinion polls. However, even the Bill's keenest advocates would acknowledge that it is controversial and that it is opposed by a large section of public opinion that includes not just the Christian Churches, but Jewish and Muslim leaders. Parliament should not lightly dismiss public opinion.

Mr. Fabricant: I am following my hon. Friend's argument with considerable interest. Does he accept that there are times when legislation may be unpopular but right? Simply to be governed by what the majority of the population might think--and perhaps even to be governed by focus groups--does not necessarily mean that we are doing what is right for the nation and the people who elect us.

Mr. Lidington: I have never argued that we should be governed by a simple arithmetical calculation of public opinion, and certainly not by focus groups. If I had thought that, I would not have voted consistently for the abolition of capital punishment. However, it is incumbent on democratic politicians to reflect carefully when they support a measure that is both controversial and flies in the face of majority public opinion. At the very least, they should express their support for such a measure with a proper understanding of, and respect for, the views of those who oppose them.

I approach the Bill with views of my own. Like my right hon. and hon. Friends, I make it clear that I am speaking as an individual and not on behalf of the Conservative party. My approach was summed up better than I could phrase by the Bishop of Liverpool, the Right Rev. James Jones, when he wrote recently:

"The challenge of a civilised society is to be able to set moral priorities while at the same time being tolerant towards and respecting the conscience of those who dissent. Society has not always got that balance right. There is a history of oppression of homosexuals and the moral certainties of the past have clearly played into the hands of bigots. But as English society becomes more tolerant, it needs to acknowledge that those who give moral and social priority to marriage are not necessarily homophobic. It is important to have the debate on sexuality without demonising each other."

Before I come on to the age of consent, I want to deal briefly with the other important aspects of the Bill and express general support for the measures on the abuse of trust. I join my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Miss Widdecombe) in paying tribute to the courage and energy of the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Ashton) in persuading the Government and Parliament to incorporate the provisions in the Bill.

We may, as individual Members, have questions about the scope of those provisions, such as whether the maximum penalty is adequate. However, the procedural motion that the House adopted on Monday prevents a Committee stage and any discussion of amendments to the Bill, so we have to take the measures on abuse of trust as they come.

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The amendment to the earlier Bill, which was moved by the hon. Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon (Dr. Harris), will decriminalise an under-age partner in a sexual relationship. That amendment was also mentioned by the hon. Member for Colne Valley. Although I had serious doubts about the amendment when it was first proposed, I now think that the hon. Gentleman was right to introduce it. That measure will tackle the problem that several hon. Members who support the Bill have talked about at length--the problem of young people who fear that if they go to their parents, a teacher, a doctor or the police, they risk criminalising themselves, even though they desperately want to get out of a relationship into which they have allowed themselves to be seduced.

The debate has clearly focused on the basic issue of the age of consent. I am willing to admit that I have had to think about this issue. It is not simply a matter of what we, as individuals, believe. I approach it as someone who is not a libertarian. In my social views, I am an old-fashioned Conservative. I believe in the primacy of marriage and that marriage is the best framework for the mutual love of one human being for another and the best environment in which to bring up children.

I must, however, acknowledge that we do not live in a theocracy; we live in a free society. There may be many things that I, as an individual, regard as wrong, immoral or mistaken, which nevertheless should not be the subject of criminal law. I believe that adultery has done immeasurable harm to family life and has scarred many children for life, but I am not proposing that adultery should be made a criminal offence and the subject of criminal sanctions.

Mr. Stephen Pound (Ealing, North): The Conservative party would lose half its members.

Mr. Lidington: The hon. Gentleman must speak for himself.

Much of the Home Secretary's speech was about equal rights. He talked about wanting to set a legal framework within which people should be free to live their lives in peace. I agree with that as a general principle, but I shall nevertheless vote against the Bill. I accept the general principle that what adults do in private, voluntarily, is a matter for them, and the law generally should not intervene in those decisions. However, we are not talking about the state of Britain in the years before the Wolfenden report or the legal reforms of 1967; we are talking about people who are legally children.

The age at which one draws any line will be a matter of judgment, and whatever age is chosen, there will always be some people who are below that age and have an emotional and moral maturity beyond their years. Equally, there will be some who need, in an ideal world, greater protection, even though they are above the age at which the law states that they are entitled to be regarded as adults.