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Mr. Swayne: All that can be said of my experience is that I was unlucky as I was turned out of the pub for at least having given the appearance of being under 18. Many others were clearly lucky in that they were able to purchase alcohol, but unlucky in that they were subsequently apprehended for being drunk and disorderly.
Why are the conviction statistics declining, even though we all know from anecdotal evidence that the problem is increasing? After all, the hon. Member for Pudsey has introduced the Bill because of the nature and size of that problem. One could speculate that the police are firefighting and have to deal with other crimes, which is certainly the case on the estate I know that is plagued with the problem. The police might be called on a Friday or Saturday evening because drunken youths have lit a fire in a pathway and broken a few windows, but lower priority would be attached to that than to all sorts of other incidents taking place in Southampton or on the waterside.
Mr. Ernie Ross (Dundee, West):
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Mr. Truswell) on his success in reaching the stage at which, I hope, the Bill will shortly be allowed to proceed in Committee. As a young Member some 21 years ago, I finished high in the private Members' ballot and proposed a Bill to introduce a death grant, but it suffered the fate of many others, as there was insufficient time to allow it to proceed. This Bill is much more likely to become law. Although I am not a good attender on Fridays, I have always had great sympathy for private Members' Bills and wish him every success, and that is why I am here today.
As my hon. Friend the Minister and other hon. Members know, the loophole does not exist in Scotland and the Bill would apply only in England and Wales. However, we in Scotland are not unaware of the problem. Licensing in Scotland is governed by the Licensing (Scotland) Act 1976, under which an offence can be committed by a licensee
Hon. Members have asked whether the terminology covers unpaid workers--the wife, the son or a person who drops into a licensed premises to relieve the licensee for a short time. The Scottish Executive and the Scottish criminal justice system believe that "agent" would cover a company in such a situation, even if it employs the people working in the shop and the licence holder is a named individual. It is clear that a national retailer and a wife, son or relative working unpaid in a licensed premised would be covered by the word "agent".
The word "agent" appears in various sections of the 1976 Act, and the Law Officers in Scotland are confident that it causes no confusion. Under that Act, the word "agent" is used in an application for a license, and is understood to be a solicitor acting for the applicant. I do not know whether my hon. Friend intends to keep the wording of the Bill or to use the word "agent", but Scotland has had no problem with it and the Scottish criminal justice system has had no difficulty pursuing prosecutions using that description.
In all other aspects, the liquor laws in Scotland and England are similar. This has always been a devolved matter, but it is now completely and absolutely devolved to the Scottish Parliament. I am sure that my colleagues in the Scottish Parliament will be keeping a close eye on what is going on here today and will take note of the comments that have been made.
It is necessary not only to stop the offence occurring, but to build in the safeguards that Opposition Members in particular have asked for during this short debate. For example, what happens to the individual behind the till in Tesco or any other supermarket or licensed premises if he is approached by one of his peers and is under peer pressure not to disclose the fact that he knows that that person is under 18?
The same can happen when young people try to buy cigarettes. A number of schemes have been tried in Scotland. I draw the House's attention to the scheme run by South Ayrshire council, which announced last year that it hoped to be the first local authority to tackle the problem of the sale of alcohol and cigarettes to youngsters through a proof-of-age scheme. It appreciated the difficulties that it would face, so it sought a partner for the project. It wanted to provide a free scheme that would encourage young people to participate.
The council set up a scheme in partnership with Photo-Me, the largest international operator and manufacturer of photo booths throughout the world. It offered the scheme to secondary school pupils aged 16-plus. The scheme is now run by the trading standards department. It goes into secondary schools in the area and, with a nominated teacher, offers the validate card to youngsters who want to take advantage of the scheme. So far, 3,800 young people have done so.
The scheme was financed solely by Photo-Me, but it is now funded by Photo-Me, the local health council and South Ayrshire council. The only cost to the applicant is the cost of the photograph. Obviously, Photo-Me hopes that the photographs will be taken in its booths, although there is no guarantee that they will be. That is the only sense in which the firm can claim to have a financial interest in the scheme.
The trading standards department supplies cards and posters to secondary schools. The cards are issued to pupils aged 16 and above. The nominated teacher checks each applicant's age with the school records, and fills in two boxes on the card. One box will contain the date on which the applicant becomes 16, the other the date on which he or she becomes 18. The photograph is then attached to the card, the word "validate" is stamped on it, and it is hermetically sealed. The card is then issued to the applicant, who can then carry it.
The card allows retailers to see at a glance whether the card holder is old enough to buy alcohol or cigarettes. They must look at the photograph, and at the information in both boxes. To sell cigarettes, they must ascertain that the individual is 16, and to sell alcohol, they must ascertain that he or she is 18.
South Ayrshire council has not yet conducted a survey to establish how often the scheme has been abused, whether it has entirely succeeded and whether every 16-year-old in the area has a card, but the response from both retailers and young people has been positive. The scheme has solved a number of problems for youngsters.
When I spoke to trading standards officers in South Ayrshire, they told me that there had been a knock-on benefit. South Ayrshire, like most areas, contains a number of night clubs, most of which specify a lower age limit. It varies from club to club, but it is usually 18. I hope that the hon. Member for New Forest, West (Mr. Swayne) does not visit the White Lion pub tonight; I hope that he will be on the telephone immediately, assuring those at the White Lion that under-age drinking is not allowed on its premises, and that if, any takes place, there will be a visit from the licensing authority pretty soon.
When I was in the age group that we are discussing--a very long time ago--I was regularly questioned about whether I was old enough to drink, because of my slight
stature. People who have had difficulty in gaining access to night clubs in South Ayrshire have asked the trading standard officers to give them cards demonstrating that they are 18. The scheme has been helpful not just to retailers selling cigarettes and liquor, but in reducing the number of young people who, once through the front door of a night club, could easily avail themselves of cigarettes and alcohol because those behind the bar would assume that, as they had convinced the door staff that they were 18, they were entitled to purchase both. Therefore, the scheme has had a knock-on effect there as well. It has also helped those people who find it difficult to convince door staff that they are 18. They find it useful to produce the validate card and to demonstrate to door staff that they are 18.
I do not want to delay the House too long. I thought that it would be useful to speak briefly about the experiences in Scotland, which will not be affected by the Bill but which has some of the associated problems. I recommend the validate scheme. If Ministers in Scotland, or the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, my hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. O'Brien) are looking for a scheme that might help to obviate the dangers involved when someone has to make a decision, the validate scheme has proved to be very successful.
Miss Julie Kirkbride (Bromsgrove):
I think that the whole House would like me to thank the hon. Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Ross) for sharing his experience in Scotland and offering a way forward on enforcement. As we have gathered from the debate, there is a problem of enforcement, which we must deal with if we are to make the law on those who are not allowed to buy alcohol more effective. It is helpful to know where schemes have had some benefit. It was nice of the hon. Gentleman, given that the Bill will not apply in Scotland because of its different licensing laws, to give some elucidation as to how we might proceed.
I apologise to the hon. Member for Pudsey (Mr. Truswell) that I could not be here for his speech. We have builders at home at the moment and Friday mornings are one of the few mornings when I can be at home to see what is going on. However, I congratulate him, along with, I think, every other hon. Member who has spoken, on introducing this relevant and necessary legislation to make the law work better.
Like other hon. Members, I send my condolences and good wishes to the family of David Knowles, whose case prompted the hon. Gentleman to introduce the legislation. Let us hope that, in David Knowles' memory at least, we can do something that might make it possible to stop such accidents among young people who do not realise the dangers of alcohol.
"or his employee or agent".
That is the difference between the two sets of legislation. The constituent of my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey had a tragic accident and the Justice Department in Scotland has considered the situation to see whether "agent" would apply in such circumstances. I must report to the House that we in Scotland are satisfied that section 68 of the 1976 Act, which uses that word, would cover disastrous incidents such as that involving David Knowles.
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