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Mr. Tipping: These points are extremely important. The first substantive point to make is that, in any referendum campaign, it will not be possible to ensure that both sides are equally balanced. There are discussions about that. Many hon. Members on both sides of the Chamber feel that, in fairness--
Mr. Tipping: Let me make just a bit of progress.
Both sides should be evenly balanced, but we all live in the political world and we know that that will not be possible. Different organisations, individuals and participants will want to contribute, and one side of the argument will try to develop resources. One of the Bill's provisions is to ensure that there is a second side--that the commission has resources to enable an opposition campaign to go forward--but we must recognise that individuals, parties and companies can collectively work together, spend and campaign. Given that, one of the Bill's important provisions is to place a cap on what parties, companies or individuals can spend. As the Neill committee put it in relation to the general election, it is a way to reduce the arms race.
Dr. Lewis:
I am glad that the Minister has given way at this point. What is the point of placing a cap on what the parties on either side of a referendum campaign can spend if the institutions of an international organisation such as the European Union do not face such a limitation?
Mr. Tipping:
I know that the hon. Gentleman gets excited by Europe--he tried to intervene after three or four sentences. I shall come to the point about the European Union, which is extremely important and excites the hon. Gentleman and some of his colleagues. We need to be aware of it, to look at it, to act rationally on it and to engage in some grown-up politics; we should not engage in yah-boo politics about the EU and the euro. The more mature consideration and debate on such matters are, the better. He and the hon. Member for West Worcestershire (Sir M. Spicer), who takes important, long-standing and strong views on European matters, are rightly making those points.
Mr. Tipping:
I give way before I get to the EU.
Mr. Grieve:
Perhaps I can spare the Minister from necessarily focusing on the EU, which is but one example.
Mr. Tipping:
It applies. I made the point--I will do so more substantively in a moment--to the hon. Member for New Forest, West (Mr. Swayne). I reminded him that there is a criminal offence. Anyone who spends more than £10,000 and is not a permitted participant is committing a criminal offence.
Mr. Walter:
The Minister will forgive me for intervening. He has used article 10 of the European convention on human rights. I have managed to get a copy from the Vote Office, and it says:
Mr. Tipping:
No. It reinforces my points to the hon. Gentleman during an earlier debate. He has quoted article 10, which reinforces all my points. I know that he did not like those points, but it reinforces them. Article 10 guarantees rights and freedoms, but, as I have said, the £10,000 restriction applies to individuals.
I shall not address amendments Nos. 14, 15 and 16, which were not discussed, but come to the issue of the EU. Hon. Members ask fairly: how we can ensure that the EU does not become involved? I say at the outset that this is an enabling Bill. It is not designed to set up a referendum on the EU. We are not at that stage yet, and we may not reach that stage for some time--if some hon. Members have their way, we shall never reach that stage. It is an enabling Bill that sets out the context--my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department called it a template. The Bill is not about a campaign for the euro.
Hon. Members say to me, "How can we ensure that the EU does not become involved in these matters?" The EU can, of course, run information campaigns. Indeed, it does run such campaigns. Some of us may not like some of what it says in those campaigns, but it has the right to say it.
When, or if, we get to a referendum campaign on the EU, the best way to be sure that the EU will not become involved is to look at the Bill and to be aware that it is a matter for the British people, the British Parliament and British parties. It is inconceivable that the European Commission, the European Parliament or others will become involved in a campaign because they know that it would be counterproductive.
Mr. Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston):
My hon. Friend is coming to the point that I want to raise. If one followed the logic of Opposition Members' claims that the Commission is an unpopular institution and their figures on the popularity of the euro, it would play right
Mr. Tipping:
The hon. Gentleman will have to intervene on me, rather than on my hon. Friend. I can see that he is getting excited again. We are a long way from the referendum campaign, although I am looking forward to it. I can see that he is looking forward to it, too; he can hardly contain himself. My hon. Friend, however, is right.
Dr. Lewis:
I assure the Minister that he has not seen me even begin to get excited. Does he expect us to think that he is naive enough to believe that the European Commission would directly stand up and dish out the currency, whichever particular brand it was using, and intervene in the campaign openly? Of course it would not. It would operate by channelling funds through all sorts of intermediate institutions and pressure groups. Bodies would spring up like mushrooms, apparently independent but covertly funded by our money to defeat the interest of our people.
Mr. Tipping:
I should hate to see the hon. Gentleman consumed by passion. We see him getting excited tonight, but, when he becomes passionate, that will be a sight for someone--perhaps behind closed doors. I shall develop my hon. Friend's point. Rather than being naive, we are fully aware of the political reality, which is that if the EU itself, or through its agents, companies or some shadowy organisation, became involved, that would work against it. It is absolutely clear that referendums, whatever the questions concerned, are about the British people deciding. That is the purpose of a referendum, and that is why we are going down this route. I know that that reassures neither the hon. Gentleman nor some of his hon. Friends.
Mr. Hayes:
I have no desire to see either the Minister or my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest, East (Dr. Lewis) excited. The Minister underestimates the Committee's intelligence when he says that the Bill is only enabling legislation and not specific provision for a specific referendum. Surely he will acknowledge that the framework and tone that are established in the Bill, and the messages and signals that are broadcast by it, are vital. The Bill is an opportunity to get the matter right, even if there will be subsequent legislation on a specific situation.
Mr. Tipping:
The hon. Gentleman has not followed the debate as closely as some other Opposition Members have. I repeat that the Bill is enabling legislation. It is a new and important step forward and a building block. Before any future referendum, a new Bill will have to be considered by the House. Later in our proceedings on this Bill, we shall discuss the design of some of those Bills. Nevertheless, it is absolutely clear that the wording of any question and, in many cases, the election date, will have to be decided by the House.
Sir Michael Spicer:
The Government keep hiding behind the idea that this is only an enabling Bill and that we must wait for the great Bill, whenever it arrives. However,
If the Minister thinks that it would be wrong for European institutions to become involved in a British referendum, and given the amount of detail that the Bill already contains, what does he have against incorporating in the Bill safeguards that would seem to deal with his own concerns about the involvement of institutions from abroad?
Mr. Tipping:
As I said--and as my hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Mr. Miller) said--I just cannot see that happening. If there were a referendum on, say, the euro, I do not believe that the European Union would become involved. It would be counterproductive for it to do so. As I keep telling the Committee, such a matter is for the British people to decide, and they would not take kindly to other organisations becoming involved in it.
"Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers."
Does that not mean that the Bill contravenes the convention?
6 pm
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