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Mr. Mike O'Brien: It is the first time that I have had to follow the hon. Member for Eddisbury (Mr. O'Brien) in a debate on the Floor of the House, although we are in Committee. It is a pleasure to welcome another member of the O'Brien family to the Chamber. The O'Briens are still voting 2:1 for Labour, so the other side of the family--the black sheep of the family--will perhaps have to work a bit harder. He made a very good speech and raised some forensic points, which deserve much consideration. I should like to consider at greater length some of the finer aspects of the issues that he raised and perhaps write to him on some of them.
The hon. Gentleman asked about the responsibilities of treasurers. He pointed out that, in a general election, the agent in the constituency and the treasurer nationally would have responsibility, so what happens when we have umbrella organisations and what happens to the parties? The treasurer would still have responsibility for the expenditure of the parties, but the umbrella organisation would have to construct its own financial set-up, including a treasurer. Then we would have to ensure that some responsibilities attach to that treasurer.
I should like to consider further some of the hon. Gentleman's points, which may deserve some closer thought. He asked what would happen if a general election and a referendum happened on the same day. In that unlikely event, parts V and VII would operate. A registered party would need to submit separate returns
for the campaign expenditure in part V and the campaign expenditure in part VII; but, again, the hon. Gentleman raised a number of issues. They suggest that he is right: if that happens, perhaps we will need further legislation to clarify some of the issues. I congratulate him on what was a very good, pertinent and, in many ways, most difficult speech; that is why I thought that I would get rid of his points at the start and then turn to the others.
Interestingly, one of the most complex issues was whether we should refer to these things as referendums or referenda. I am interested that it is the Labour party that has decided to use the English version and that the Conservatives seem to be using referenda, the European version--perhaps that says something about the debate.
For the benefit of those who may be watching us, it is likely that we may be in for a longer night than we had anticipated. Whether we will be able to vote at 10 o'clock is probably doubtful, but that will be a matter for you, Mr. Martin, and for the Committee.
Subsection (1) of clause 111 introduces schedule 13, which provides the expenditure limits on referendum campaigns. Therefore, that short subsection constitutes the outcome that the preceding provisions of part VI are designed to support.
The issue in this debate is whether such controls should be in place at all. I argue that the Government's position is based on principle and is not aimed at gaining any particular result from any particular referendum. We believe that if, as we have agreed, it is right and practical to control spending at major general elections, it is right and practical to control spending in referendum campaigns. As we have seen in previous clauses, it is no greater matter to establish a regime to fit a relatively brief referendum campaign than it is to activate the Representation of the People Act 1983 regime in relation to, for example, a Westminster by-election.
Although the need to avoid an arms race perhaps does not arise so acutely in referendum campaigns as in general election campaigns, nevertheless we believe that it is desirable to ensure that the outcome of a referendum is not unduly influenced by the often substantial sums that individuals or organisations may have at their disposal. Schedule 13, which we have attached to clause 111 and are considering in the context of this debate, provides the various limits that each organisation would be expected to observe in a referendum.
We believe that the Opposition's new clause 4 would send the wrong message to those who are considering the issues that we are debating. We think that the new clause is unnecessary and, in many ways, designed simply to give the Opposition a chance to have the Electoral Commission publish a report seeking to change the way in which referendum financing is organised.
The new clause, in addition to the Bill's provisions, would send to the Electoral Commission the message that Parliament was so uncertain about the controls that it had established that it wanted the Electoral Commission to re-examine those controls, perhaps even before they were put into operation. The Government, of course, believe that that would be a false signal.
The Bill gives the commission ample opportunity to comment on anything that it feels is not going well. It does not need the new clause to do that, and we do not want to send it the wrong signal. The Opposition may also feel that, as they do not like the provision in the Bill, they
could get a better deal from the Electoral Commission. We do not want them to abuse the Electoral Commission in that way.
We believe that it is simply undesirable to have referendums bought by those who are able to pay the largest sums. We have to seek to have some constraints. A referendum should, after all, be a decision by the people of Britain. They should decide what to do on the specific issue. However, if one side is able liberally to put its case, whereas the other side is restrained by the finances at its disposal--or if, as Conservative Members propose, there are no spending limits--we could end up with one side being able to drown out the views of the other side, deluging the public with their views and vast amounts of literature, to the exclusion of the other side of the argument.
If we are putting a question to the British people, we have to give them a choice, a balanced debate and a demonstration of fair play in which both sides are able to put their case.
The Opposition spokesman, the right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir G. Young), made three propositions. He said that we could have equal limits, no limits or some limits. I have already dealt with the proposition of equal expenditure in reply to the hon. Member for New Forest, West (Mr. Swayne).
We could have specified that there shall be equal expenditure by both umbrella organisations. The problem with doing so is that the umbrella organisations may seek to express their arguments in a specific way that is not supported by some of the major political parties supporting a no or a yes campaign. The parties may wish to express their own point of view, and we think that it would be wrong to seek to prevent them from doing so. As the Neill committee argued, it would be impractical to set an equal limit on both sides, but that does not mean that we should have no limits, because that would merely enable those who can spend the most to outshout--
It being Ten o'clock, The Chairman left the Chair to report progress and ask leave to sit again.
Committee report progress.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 15 (Exempted business),
Question again proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Mr. Mike O'Brien:
I was saying that it would be wrong to enable one side to outshout, outspend or out-propagandise the other, because the people of this country, who might be being asked to make a judgment on an important issue, would not have a balanced argument put to them.
Having some limits would enable the debate to be balanced. Both sides would have an opportunity to put their case. The parties need not have identical limits imposed on both sides. We do not have a closed mind about the exact make-up of the limits, but our proposal would provide balance in the basic funding for the
umbrella organisations and put limits on the other participants in the debate to ensure that everyone could participate.
Mr. O'Brien:
The hon. Gentleman has made his points and I shall try to deal with them. We are pressed for time and there are others who want to contribute on other clauses and amendments, so I shall make progress if he will allow me.
People want to be informed but they do not want to be deluged with propaganda by the richer side, or by both sides getting involved in an arms race to see who can put the most junk mail into people's letter boxes. They want a sensible debate in which both sides have sufficient funding to ensure that they can put their arguments forward.
We heard an important speech from the right hon. Member for South Norfolk (Mr. MacGregor), a member of the Neill committee. I shall deal with some of the points that he raised. In response to the White Paper, the Neill committee said:
The intention behind part VII is to ensure fair play in a referendum. There cannot be fair play if the campaign is skewed by wealthy individuals spending millions of pounds on one side. Provided that they do not attempt too much expenditure, the best way of creating as level a playing field as we can is by imposing limits on the umbrella organisations and the various other participants.
Conservative Members have pointed out that in the 1975 referendum campaign, Britain in Europe outspent the national referendum campaign by 20:1. The limits in the Bill restrict each umbrella group to £5 million. That is a significant improvement on the situation 25 years ago.
The right hon. Member for South Norfolk complained about foreign intervention in a UK referendum. If all spending controls are removed, foreign nations will have free rein to spend as much as they want. The scheme set out in the Bill imposes some constraints on that. The Conservatives should bear that in mind. They want to restrict the EU and the various umbrella organisations; they want to restrict everyone except the Conservative party. Labour and the Liberal Democrats are willing to accept limits. The only people who are arguing for unlimited funding are the Conservatives.
That, at this day's sitting, the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Bill may be proceeded with, though opposed, until any hour.--[Mr. Kevin Hughes.]
Question agreed to.
"As a matter of principle we do not oppose the imposition of a cap on such expenditure. Our conclusion to the contrary was largely founded on practical considerations."
If it is practical, as the Opposition accept, to impose limits at a general election, it is practical to impose them on a referendum campaign. There are no new issues of principle.
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