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12.42 am
The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. Charles Clarke): I congratulate the hon. Member for Northavon (Mr. Webb) on securing this debate on the funding of the Avon and Somerset constabulary. I join in his opening tribute to the dedication and commitment of his force, particularly the chief constable, Mr. Pilkington. Early in my time as a Minister I had an opportunity to go to Bristol, where I met Mr. Pilkington and many of his colleagues in the crime reduction partnership. I was very impressed by the approach of the force and the partner authorities with whom they are seeking to fight to reduce crime levels.
In the polarity that the hon. Gentleman suggested, it would be more accurate to describe Avon and Somerset as a modern and efficient force than to call it a make do and mend force. It is well led and is seeking to address difficult issues creatively and effectively. I want to place on record my appreciation of that.
As the hon. Gentleman acknowledged, only a week ago I responded to an Adjournment debate from the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Leigh) about the funding of Lincolnshire police. Police funding and rural crime concerns have been raised in earlier debates. They are important and genuine issues. As the hon. Gentleman generously acknowledged, my response is bound to be similar to those that I have given in previous debates.
The House debated and approved the Government's proposals for police funding for 2000-01 on Thursday 3 February. The Liberal Democrats voted against the plans. Ironically, that would have cut the funding for all police authorities. We did not make much of that. I understand that the hon. Gentleman was not able to be in the Chamber for that debate, no doubt for a valid reason. His hon. Friend the Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) raised important issues from his experience as chairman of a police authority.
It is important to set out the facts for Avon and Somerset constabulary. For 2000-01, its funding from the Government is £173.7 million--an increase of 3.2 per cent. on the previous year, compared with the national average of 2.8 per cent. It is important to put on record the fact that Avon and Somerset did better than the national average. I understand that the police authority unanimously set its budget on 10 February at a total of £181.2 million. The increase in its net revenue spending over 1999-2000 is 3.9 per cent., which is significant.
As the hon. Gentleman said, the authority was conscious of the need to set a precept that was reasonable and prudent. The increase in the police precept on the council tax is 11.5 per cent. for a band D property and I understand that the increase is expected to be below the average precept increase for the south-west. I know neither why that decision was taken nor what the position of the Liberal Democrats was on those issues--given their famous tax-raising commitment--when the matter was debated in the police authority. However, I understand the constraints on every police authority in deciding what judgment to make in respect of resources and I note that the police precept increase was expected to be below the average for the south-west.
The chief constable deserves great credit, as the hon. Gentleman said. When the police authority looked at its spending plans, it did so in a positive way that minimised the effect on delivery of front-line policing. The plans mean a reduction in police numbers by 30, but they protect the operational front line by ensuring that the cuts are made in central departments in the way suggested by the hon. Gentleman.
It may be of interest to the House to know that the total number of police officers in the Avon and Somerset constabulary was the same in September 1999 as it was in March 1997. There has been no decline during that period. The police authority deserves tribute for maintaining stability in the force.
Avon and Somerset's expenditure per head of population in 1999-2000 was estimated at £115.50, which is marginally better than the average for the shire counties of £114 per head of population. Avon and Somerset has done well in that significant respect. It has addressed the situation by taking hard decisions and directing them well.
In responding to the debate, I must refer to the hon. Gentleman's point about crime levels in the county. As he acknowledged, in the 12 months to September 1999, crime in Avon and Somerset fell by 5.2 per cent. or 8,162 crimes. That contrasted with an increase in crime in England and Wales, so Avon and Somerset did extremely well in that regard.
The hon. Gentleman said that citing that figure might suggest complacency. Let me reassure him that there is absolutely none. As the Government made plain this week, we have a clear drive towards reducing crime levels throughout the country, particularly in respect of vehicle crime, burglary and robbery. We have set a clear agenda and we are not complacent. However, it is right to congratulate the force on their success, in partnership with local authorities and others, in substantially reducing crime levels.
I understand the hon. Gentleman's concerns about resources and money. He makes a fair point and any hon. Member worth his salt would do so. However, I am sure that he would acknowledge that those concerns need to be set in the context of the genuine achievements of the force in addressing the issues and making progress.
Mr. Webb:
May I return to the Minister's earlier comment about make do and mend as opposed to modern and efficient? As the record will show, I accepted that the service is efficient. My concern is that it must not become
Mr. Clarke:
One of the joys of responding to an Adjournment debate is that one has a text to help one through these difficult discussions. The phrases "make do and mend" and "modern and efficient" were not in my text; they were in the hon. Gentleman's speech. He used that language. The record will sustain what I said--that it is important to pay tribute to the modern and efficient Avon and Somerset constabulary, rather than suggesting that it was moving towards make do and mend. I certainly did not make such a suggestion, although the hon. Gentleman may have done. Confidence in the force is both required and deserved, which is why I thought it important to respond to his suggestion that it was becoming a make do and mend force. I do not believe that the police authority, the chief constable or the senior officers believe that to be true, although they will all continue--rightly and fairly--to make the case for more resources as time passes. I am disappointed that the hon. Gentleman should try to spread gossip that the force was approaching a make do and mend situation, because that is not true. I know that he would not want to be accused of spreading gloom about the future of policing in the area that he represents, and I thought that it was important to get it on the record that the Government do not believe that that is an appropriate description of the situation.
The police authority stated in its policing plan for 1999-2000:
The hon. Gentleman raised several issues, as an aside to his discussion, that were addressed in the debate on 3 February, such as sparsity, the damping factor and security issues. I shall not repeat what I said in that debate and, indeed, the hon. Gentleman generously did not ask me to do so. He highlighted two issues--pensions and pay and conditions--on which I wish to confirm what I said in that debate.
We acknowledge that there is a serious problem with pensions. The hon. Member for Somerton and Frome raised it powerfully in his speech in the debate on 3 February, and it is a genuine issue across the country. This Government and previous Governments have not grasped the issue as it needs to be grasped. It raises fundamental issues about funding as a whole, the proportion of police spending that goes on pensions, and distribution--because different forces deal with the situation in different ways.
As I said in the earlier debate, we are addressing the issues as a matter of high priority, because the current situation is not fair. We are carefully considering what
should be done, but I do not have a white rabbit to pull out of the hat to solve the problem. The issues have not previously been addressed because they are difficult to address and even harder to get right. What is important is that a police authority such as Avon and Somerset should not have its flexibility to decide the allocation of its resources constrained unacceptably by the proportion of its funding that must be devoted to pensions. That is a legitimate issue for the hon. Member for Northavon to raise, and I take it very seriously. Any genuinely constructive suggestions that he has about how we should address that issue would be welcome--I do not say that in a sly spirit, because I mean it seriously. Many people have odd ideas, but actually cracking the problem will be difficult.
The hon. Gentleman was right to raise the issues he did on pay and conditions. We have a nationally agreed system of pay that offers constraint and is a significant factor, but those problems do not begin to approach the pensions problems in terms of the balance of issues that we must address.
In conclusion, I want to emphasise that the Avon and Somerset police constabulary will receive an extra 101 posts over the next three years under the crime fighting fund. That will be of significant help in addressing some of the issues that the hon. Gentleman has raised, but it is a step in the right direction, and not the complete process. The chairman of the Avon and Somerset police authority welcomed the decision. He was very positive about it, and I welcome that acknowledgement.
Being a Liberal Democrat, the hon. Member for Northavon is not a utopian. He will not expect me to pluck from the sky a solution that will solve every problem under the sun, and the realism of his party on tax and other matters is well known. However, I assure him in all seriousness that the Government are trying to move in the direction that he prefers.
We want more resources to reach areas such as Avon and Somerset, but we want to ensure that the economy remains stable. Police authorities and other public-sector organisations are finding that the steady year-on-year increases under our three-year spending programme--which may not be as large as people would like--provide better help than the regime that we inherited. Under the previous Government's arrangements, resources went up and down every year, and cuts were always a possibility.
The early years of this Government are being spent filling in some of the deep holes that developed under the previous Administration. However, the steady increases that we are achieving in resource allocation represent the way forward. In my experience, police authorities across the country welcome the balanced and steady way in which we approach such matters, as year-on-year fluctuations in resources make planning and budgeting extremely difficult.
I appreciate that the Avon and Somerset force has a backlog of capital maintenance works. The hon. Member for Somerton and Frome suggested that that backlog amounted to about £7 million and that it could be tackled if the force were allowed to unlock capital receipts. The House will understand that my Department is governed by Treasury rules, but my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister is considering the matter in his review of local authority funding.
"Crime reduction and community safety must be at the forefront of all that we do. We aim to reduce the overall levels of crime and disorder through working in partnership with local authorities and local communities."
The Government can take credit for the work that they have done through the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 on building local partnerships, but the example of what has been done in the Avon and Somerset force, including the clear commitment by the whole force to working in partnership with local authorities--and, by the same token, the commitment by the local authorities to working with the police force--is exemplary and is the main reason why the force has succeeded in working with others to reduce crime. It is important to acknowledge that.
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