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Dr. Godman: Was the hon. Gentleman sick?
Mr. Key: No. I am delighted to assure the hon. Gentleman that I was not sick. Indeed, I enjoyed the delightful sight of the hon. Gentleman's constituency from HMS Sandown for a wonderful part of the day.
A great deal of hard work was done. However, I was able to spend time with ratings, senior ratings and officers to listen to what was on their minds as well as trying to answer questions about everything from NATO and the role of HMS Sandown in the wider strategic picture to the real mysteries of parliamentary procedure. I wanted to know how on earth the chef fed the ship's complement on less than £2 per head a day.
The senior ratings wanted to talk about military discipline. There will always be a big difference between the standards of discipline expected in the military, especially on one of Her Majesty's ships, and the more laid-back approach--as some perceive it--to life ashore. That is taken as read. HMS Sandown is a fine ship with a fine crew; no doubt part of that quality is achieved by the maintenance of tight discipline. However, those with no experience of the military should realise that the consequences of comparatively minor misdemeanours in the military are altogether more serious than those for an equivalent misdemeanour in civilian life.
It is right to argue that a minor misdemeanour in the course of high intensity warfare puts at risk the life of the perpetrator and the crew. However, as was pointed out to me, oversleeping by 10 minutes on board ship leads to a serious financial penalty on a fixed tariff with the possibility, if matters do not improve, of derating and future career consequences.
Matters are different in the Army. Any hon. Member whose constituency includes a garrison town knows that Friday and Saturday nights can be lively. I have been out with a Wiltshire constabulary night shift and observed off-duty soldiers in, we shall say, high spirits. If the civil police arrested them, they would spend the night in the cells. If they subsequently appeared before a magistrate, they would receive a verbal rap over the knuckles and a conditional discharge. However, that does not happen. The Wiltshire police inform the soldiers that they will radio for the Royal Military Police, whereupon the soldiers miraculously evolve into Olympic athletes. They know that if the RMP haul them back to their garrison and march them in front of the commanding officer in the morning, there will be a standard tariff fine of £750.
When the Minister replies to the debate, will he tell us more about the anticipated timetable for consolidating the three service discipline Acts and introducing a single, tri-service Act?
Mr. Gerald Howarth: I am not entirely clear about the line that my hon. Friend is pursuing. Is he suggesting that magistrates courts could benefit from the example set by commanding officers?
Mr. Key: That is an intriguing and tempting possibility. The answer might be yes. However, as my hon. Friend knows, if a Member of Parliament dares to suggest to magistrates that they are not tough enough, consequences ensue.
I hope that we can receive more guidance on the reforms and the introduction of a tri-service Act. The Ministry of Defence has a duty of care but the fact remains that those brave men and women who join the forces are ultimately prepared to lay down their lives for their country.
Civilian life will never be the same as military life. This Government--and, indeed, the previous Government--expressed an intention to enact changes. However, there is a growing credibility gap. The Government managed to make major constitutional changes swiftly. They destroyed the House of Lords as we knew it, and established a devolved Parliament in Scotland and an Assembly in Wales. However, there seems no serious intention to make progress on consolidating the service discipline Acts. All we have are aspirations. That will not do.
The Secretary of State for Defence is a distinguished lawyer. He understands the relevant issues very well. We look to him to tackle the matter on behalf of all those who serve in Her Majesty's forces. We are considering more than a sin of omission. Failure to consolidate symbolises much of what is wrong with the Bill.
The Government believe that the Bill is simply a technical measure, which tidies up bits and pieces to keep them out of trouble. If only that were so. The Bill represents the most fundamental challenge to military discipline and military effectiveness for many years. Hidden in the undergrowth of guesswork lie some good intentions. However, I remind the Government that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
There is a fundamental difference between the Opposition and the Government. Conservative Members believe that the Bill could damage the authority of a
commanding officer and therefore fighting effectiveness. The prime responsibility of the armed forces is defence of the realm and the human rights of the people of these islands. It is vital that they should be able to discharge that duty above all else. When judges are called upon to interpret relevant articles of the convention, they must use common sense by recognising the fundamental difference between military and civil institutions.The problem is that the Government, as Baroness Symons said, have made the Bill part of their human rights agenda. In doing that, they have chosen to risk the capability of the armed forces against the possibility of an adverse judgment after some possible future legal challenge.
The system of armed forces discipline works. The Bill does nothing to improve that system and has the potential to harm it significantly. In the words of Lord Craig of Radley, former Chief of the Defence Staff during the Gulf war:
- "We should be bending over backwards to protect the Armed Forces from any derogation of their strength and quality rather than bending over backwards, as the Bill seems to do, to knock the armed forces into line with every detail of the convention at any cost."--[Official Report, House of Lords, 29 November 1999; Vol. 607, c. 680.]
I remind the House of articles 2 and 5 of the convention, which cover the rights to life, liberty and security. Without effective and efficient armed forces, the nation's ability to uphold those rights will be compromised. The Bill is not good enough. I urge hon. Members to vote for our reasoned amendment in the Lobby tonight.
2.49 pm
Mr. Bruce George (Walsall, South): It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Salisbury (Mr. Key), who was a distinguished member of the Defence Committee, and I note that six other ex-members have been present this afternoon. However, I am a little sad that he has moved from his positive role to this backwater, which he endures with a smile and fine rhetorical flourishes. He performs gracefully, although his role is negative compared with his previous activity, and I am pleased that he remembers one of my rare incisive questions. However, he did not recall other remarks that he and I made and noted in the delightful series of Armed Forces Bill Committee meetings and I shall remind him of them in a moment.
I am sad that the Bill is a party political issue. I do not think that it should be. The word "Europe" appears somewhere in the documentation, if one looks hard enough, and to display their anti-Europeanism the Opposition have to continue their tradition of receiving large sums from wealthy donors.
Mr. Duncan Smith: Where are they?
Mr. George: I admit that the donations are drying up. I have driven behind one of Eddie Stobart's vehicles many times and believe that he still contributes to a dying cause.
The hon. Member for Salisbury was a little unfair and I am sad that he led Conservative opposition to the Bill. There is no fundamental difference between us, but a difference of interpretation and I cannot believe that his
Government would have acted differently. They supported the European convention on human rights and had a reasonable human rights record so the idea that they would have withstood the inevitable had they remained in office is fanciful and erroneous.Reading the Conservatives' amendment, I am touched by their apparent affection and support for leadership, particularly in the light of the fact that they collectively disposed of virtually every leader they had in the 20th century. At this very moment, the knives for the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Hague), whose name is first on the list of those who tabled the amendment, are probably being sharpened. The Conservative party supports discipline, of which it has little, and the principle of command.
Mr. Duncan Smith: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. George: Having made those political and uncharacteristically provocative comments, I am delighted to give way.
Mr. Duncan Smith: The leaders that the Conservative party got rid of first proved themselves to be first-rate successes and changed the country for the better, but I want to pick the hon. Gentleman up on the reasons for our opposition, which were so well put by my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (Mr. Key). We have to judge whether the authority of commanding officers will be enhanced or reduced by the Bill. We judge that it will be reduced so surely it is our job to say that the Bill should not go any further until that criticism is met.
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