| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
Dr. Godman: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his characteristic courtesy in giving way. As I said earlier, my experience is very dated, but there is a substantial difference between the prospect of an offending soldier facing his commanding officer and the ordeal of appearing in front of a court martial. In my view, which is based on terribly dated experience, the vast majority of soldiers would rather face their commanding officer than appear before a court martial.
Sir Peter Lloyd: That was the point that I was seeking to make. It is much more satisfactory all round, and it is now the law, that the service man should have the option. Why do we need to complicate that option and make it rather more difficult for the service man to know how best to use it in his own interest?
Mr. Nick Hawkins (Surrey Heath): I have been listening carefully. Having heard what my right hon. Friend said about his own experience in the CCF, let me reassure him that many of us have had that happy experience. I was a member of what was originally the very first school combined cadet force in the country, and benefited hugely from that experience--I come from a services family--so I do not think that my right hon. Friend should be at all reticent in expressing his views. Does he agree that the crucial question that we are addressing is whether the officers themselves feel that their place in the chain of command and the effectiveness with which they carry out their functions will be adversely affected? If, as my right hon. Friend believes, as I believe and as the officers to whom we have spoken believe, that is the case, there is a problem.
Sir Peter Lloyd: That proposition sounds convincing. I am looking for the Government to say either that it is not so and reassuring us, or, as I was arguing earlier, that it is not necessary to make these changes to put the law as it affects military discipline on all fours with the convention. It is a crucial point because the only reason
for introducing the Bill at this time is to make it convention-proof. We need to ensure that the Government have got it right, but I fear that, in trying to make it convention-proof, they have gone much further than they needed and risk the adverse consequences to which my hon. Friend refers.Another concern is the role of the proposed judicial officer who must endorse the detention of a service man if he is to be held for longer than 48 hours. That is an example of bureaucracy being added to the system, and it could further undermine the commanding officer. However, unlike some of my hon. Friends, I do not believe that it need do so. If tactfully and sensibly handled by the judicial officer and the CO, such oversight could be a useful resource for the CO, and it could also enhance the sense of fairness with which the summary proceedings are conducted from the point of view of the service man.
I cannot see that there will necessarily be problems with the procedure in Aldershot or Gutersloh, but they may arise when units are engaged in active operations overseas or in demanding peacekeeping roles. That is the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip-Northwood (Mr. Wilkinson) made well in his intervention. The Minister claimed in reply to my hon. Friend that modern means of communication could resolve the problem, and I am sure that it will be theoretically possible in most situations to maintain the necessary contact and secure the necessary approvals via electronic links. However, I should not like to have to rely on them on all occasions. I am more concerned that a senior officer, who should be devoting all his attention to the mission in hand could, and would on occasion, be distracted by the demanding procedures in the Bill. That should not be allowed to happen.
It is not practical to have two sets of rules--one for home and one for abroad.
Mr. Hancock: We went over that point at great length in the Defence Committee. It was very hard for any member to pinpoint an incident that would correspond to the problem you foresee of a commanding officer in the field being unable to follow the procedures to deal with a difficult problem. If a soldier had done something so bad, he would have been out of the unit and gone. There is no conceivable scenario in which someone would be left in that situation. The commanding officer would get on and do what he was paid to do and justice would take its course in the normal way. No one can present a single example that supports your argument.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Lord): Order. The hon. Gentleman must try to use the correct parliamentary language.
Sir Peter Lloyd: I always understood that war and active operations produced the most unexpected circumstances. The hon. Gentleman may be right--he was on the Defence Committee and heard the evidence given. I am willing to concede that it may be rare that such problems occur, but I hope that the hon. Gentleman will accept that he cannot speak ex cathedra and say that they will never happen.
Mr. Blunt: I wish to draw to the attention of the hon. Member for Portsmouth, South (Mr. Hancock), who is my colleague on the Defence Committee, the conclusion that we reached on the custody issue:
- "We remain concerned that the legislation should cover all eventualities, and look forward to the government clarifying this issue during the Committee stage of the Bill."
3.45 pm
Mr. Paul Keetch (Hereford): I, for one, will be brief. As has been said on both sides of the House, we are proud of our armed forces. They have gained a worldwide reputation for being among the best--and, in some cases, the best in the world. They uphold values of democracy, liberty and justice--the very values that form the core of British society. When tested in difficult operational circumstances in the Gulf, the Balkans and, most recently, East Timor, our armed forces carried out their duties in a manner that has consistently upheld such democratic values.
The importance in the armed forces of a unique discipline system and a chain of command cannot be underestimated. It instils in our armed forces an overriding sense of duty, loyalty and discipline that builds both co-operation and professionalism, enabling them to maintain their effectiveness in peacetime and in conflict. In short, it means that, when they fight, they win.
Our armed forces have to be prepared to move with a world that is changing at a lightning pace. They have to be able to respond to situations quickly, in a post-cold war situation that is characterised by globalisation and increasing interdependence between countries and regions, as well as the resurgence of nationalism, ethnic violence and regional instability. We need, therefore, to ensure that our armed forces operate in the most modern and effective way possible. We expect our forces to represent and uphold British values, and if they are to continue to do so, we must adapt to changing times. I believe that the Bill seeks to do that.
The publication yesterday of the Defence Committee's report raises important issues relating to the passage of the Bill which need to be debated in more detail in Committee--I am sure that the Government will do that--although I have felt at times this afternoon that we might already be in Committee. Discipline in the armed forces must be kept under constant review. We all know that we return every four or five years to the Armed Forces Act, but discipline should not just be examined and then returned to the cupboard; it should be constantly refreshed and changed.
The Conservatives argue that the Bill fails to address issues of fundamental human rights, but it seeks to do just that, and does it well. The Bill will ensure that the personnel of the armed forces will be treated like citizens and entitled to the fundamental human rights encompassed in the Human Rights Act 1998.
The most recent review of discipline that we considered was the Armed Forces Act 1996, which my party supported as a positive step to bring discipline into line with the European convention on human rights. The reforms reinforced the independence of courts martial and extended the right to choose a court martial to establish checks and balances on the chain of command. The reforms in the Bill are a necessary extension of that Act and they are welcome because they create external as well as internal checks, which is a good thing.
Some reference has been made to the cost of the Bill and the figure of £6.5 million has already been mentioned. There is a cost in getting legal systems and services right, but there is also a cost to getting them wrong. Let us not forget that our armed forces budget has been severely tested in recent years by compensation paid out when successive Governments got things wrong--for example, compensation for women discharged because they were pregnant cost £60 million. I would rather get the system right than pay later if we get it wrong.
The main effect of clauses 1 to 10 are to make provision for a judicial officer to determine whether a suspect or accused should be held in custody. At present, the main responsibility for deciding whether the accused is kept in custody is in the hands of the commanding officer. Although the commanding officer has to review custody regularly, he cannot be seen as an independent figure when authorising the detention of a suspect. There are already checks on the commanding officer's powers, but the possibility of someone enduring up to eight days in custody without a review by an independent person is unacceptable.
The European Court of Human Rights concluded in the case of Hood v. the United Kingdom, which has been mentioned already, that both internal and external checks on decisions affect civil liberty. We believe that our armed forces are made up of citizens and that, as a basic human right, they should be able to expect the same rights as everyone else.
The new procedures will require a commanding officer to review custody every 12, 36 and 48 hours. After that, the commanding officer may apply to a judicial officer for continued detention. Applying that procedure in Britain's garrison towns is different from applying it in operational circumstances, but it will be possible to meet the requirement thanks to modern technology. The Bill also examines the practical difficulties involved, and I hope that the Government will return to that matter in Committee.
Conservative Members have argued that our forces might be out of touch with command for long periods, and that the Bill will therefore be impractical. My noble Friend Lord Wallace of Saltaire discussed that matter in another place, but he could find only one example--of a submarine under the polar ice cap--in which that might happen. Although there might be other circumstances in which that eventuality might come about, are we really saying that our entire system of armed forces discipline should be based on such exceptions? I do not believe so.
I returned late last night from three days in Kosovo, where I spent time with our armed forces. I know that the hon. Members for Salisbury (Mr. Key) and for Grantham and Stamford (Mr. Davies) also visited there recently, and made a favourable impression. I found that our commanders in the region see no problem with this Bill. There has been a real revolution in military matters over the past few years. The technology that enables instant, global communication now exists. Even in the jungles of East Timor, our forces will not be out of touch, so we see no problem with the proposals.
The Select Committee report expresses the concern that the Bill should cover operational eventualities, and it is important that the question be debated both here and in Committee. However, we consider that the Bill establishes a system that will cover the norm and that exceptions can be dealt with.
As I have pointed out already, the role of our volunteer and professional Army is to protect our democratic values. We expect our services to represent Britain and British values overseas. If we retain our leading role in defence diplomacy, and if we are to send our forces into eastern Europe and Africa to train military forces to accept the principle that the military is the servant of the state and not its master, we must ensure that our services continue to represent those values. We must ensure that we remain proud of our services and that our disciplinary procedures are an example to others.
The harsh disciplinary regime of 200 years ago, which was necessary to maintain order among troops who were largely illiterate and uneducated, no longer exists. In our highly skilled and professional armed forces, the changes proposed in the Bill will be successful. They represent the basis for a more highly trained and more professional armed forces. We on the Liberal Democrat Benches support the Bill.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |