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Mr. Bercow: I note the significance of what the right hon. and learned Gentleman said about belief in the national veto on defence. Does he agree that, in those circumstances, it is--to put it mildly--unfortunate that the President of the European Commission has said that an attack an one member state of the EU should be regarded as an attack on all--apparently, deliberately seeking to ape NATO? Should he not be condemned for that?
Mr. Campbell: We should remember that the President of the Commission is not the Prime Minister of Europe, even though he may from time to time think that he is. Europe is a union of nation states, which have pooled their sovereignty in certain respects. Frankly, there is no such legal obligation. If the hon. Gentleman has followed American thinking on these matters, he will know that there was great apprehension in Washington about the notion of a security guarantee being given, as it were, by the back door. I do not support that view. If that is what Mr. Prodi said, he was wrong, and I hope that the former
Secretary of State for Defence, who is now the Secretary-General of NATO, took an early opportunity to tell him just that.
Lord Hurd, the former Foreign Secretary, wrote in the Financial Times on 18 February:
Dr. Julian Lewis:
As Lord Hurd is now the fount of mainstream opinion and the oracle on all things, does the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree with what he said at the time of the conflict in Bosnia--that we should not allow the Bosnian Muslims the arms to defend themselves for fear of creating a level killing field? Is that mainstream opinion, or should we consider these matters in their own terms and not according to who said them?
Mr. Campbell:
At the time, Lord Hurd was the Foreign Secretary of the Conservative Government, whom the hon. Gentleman almost certainly supported.
Mr. Campbell:
It would almost be worth having the Conservatives back in power to see on how many occasions the hon. Gentleman would disagree with them.
Lord Hurd's remarks were roundly condemned by Lady Thatcher and also by my right hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr. Ashdown). I am not arguing that Lord Hurd is infallible, but on that matter he seems to be in rather more of the main stream. They were all in the main stream when the Maastricht treaty was being considered, with the exception of the hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr. Duncan Smith) who is now shadow Secretary of State for Defence.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael J. Martin):
Order. The hon. Gentleman cannot keep interrupting. I cannot hear what the right hon. and learned Member for North-East Fife (Mr. Campbell) is saying.
Mr. Campbell:
The hon. Member for New Forest, East (Dr. Lewis) does not know what stream he was in, but whatever it was, I hope that it was a stream of consciousness.
Mr. Campbell:
I will not give way because I want to give the hon. Gentleman a short reminder of history. The Maastricht treaty was whipped through the House--three-line Whips, night after night. Some hon. Members resisted the Whip; for example, the hon. Member for
My concluding remarks will be about the feasibility of a proposed national missile defence system--very much part of the political agenda in Washington. The first two tests of such a system have been inconclusive, but a third is expected before President Clinton makes a decision, in June, on whether to seek congressional funding to enable full-scale development and deployment to take place by 2005.
President Clinton intends to take account of four published criteria: the threat; feasibility; affordability; and the strategic environment--including arms control objectives. It is clear beyond question to anyone who spends time in Washington at present, or to anyone who was in Munich a fortnight ago, that the only test that matters is feasibility. If the system can be made to work, the United States--under the present Administration or the next--will deploy a form of national missile defence, in the face of the reservations of its European allies and even if it means breaching the anti-ballistic missile treaty.
Yesterday, the Secretary of State engaged in a certain amount of urbane dissembling when that reality was put to him. He did not really respond to the shadow Secretary of State's approach to the matter today. There will be a decision in June. The UK Government had better have a view as to their reaction to that decision. In the first instance, some effort will be made to obtain the use of Fylingdales as part of the system. That may not be entirely popular in some parts of Yorkshire.
There may well be consequences for the nuclear doctrine of minimum deterrence, or for the prospects of obtaining reductions in nuclear weapons--either through START 2 or, more optimistically, through a START 3 treaty. If the deployment of national missile defence provokes a lack of co-operation, the prospect of further multilateral nuclear disarmament may be much more remote than many of us hope.
Liberal Democrats oppose the proposal for national missile defence if it has the effect of breaching the anti-ballistic missile treaty. If some arrangement can be made--if the technology can be made available to Russia, which is currently under discussion in Washington--different considerations may apply. The ABM is important because it has been a keystone in the balance of power since 1972.
The hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green talked about threat assessment; he referred to rogue states. Popularly, there are four of those: Iran, Libya, North Korea and Iraq. Perhaps we should look at Iran with rather more optimism after the events of the past week or so. We have just resumed diplomatic relations with Libya, and the two suspects in the Lockerbie bombing inquiry have been made available for trial. Former Secretary of State Perry is making a long, detailed effort to negotiate with North Korea. In Iraq, we are containing the situation on the basis that if there is any effort to use--or to threaten to use--weapons of mass destructions, there
would almost certainly be a proportionate response, as I think that James Baker pointed out during his negotiations with Tariq Aziz before the Gulf war.
The risk of the proposal for national minimum missile defence is that it appears to undercut the whole principle of deterrence. There is an important question for all of us: supposing that the UK were to be involved in that proposal, what would be the cost? How certain could we be that the US would be willing to transfer all the technology to us?
Mr. Campbell:
I am about to finish my speech. Other Members want to take part in the debate, and I have delayed the House as long as is prudent.
One disappointment of the White Paper is that only one sentence deals with nuclear weapons--in paragraph 128. That is profoundly disappointing as we approach the review conference for the non-proliferation treaty, which will be held within a few weeks. Under article 6 of that treaty, the UK has obligations to pursue nuclear disarmament in good faith, by negotiation. Nothing in the White Paper sets out what the UK proposes to do at the conference, or, indeed, in the future. That is a sad and unfortunate omission.
Mr. Syd Rapson (Portsmouth, North):
It is always a privilege to be able to speak in this place. No doubt it is because so many Members are absent that I have been given that opportunity today. However, I am not sure whether it is an advantage to follow the right hon. and learned Member for North-East Fife (Mr. Campbell), whose eloquence we try to emulate. It is a pity that his talents are wasted in the Liberal party.
I want to focus on more realistic issues, which touch me and my city, and also to talk about my experiences in the WEU. Those matters are wide ranging, but not rambling. I shall touch on four of them. The first is parochial and relates to Portsmouth and the Territorial Army. The second is the Defence Aviation Repair Agency, about which I have some worries. The third relates to Portsmouth's interests in defence contracting. Finally, I shall make some observations on the European issue.
Earlier, we heard an attack on the TA. I recently visited our TA centre in Portsmouth to find out the truth. The professionals running the TA were extremely complimentary about the restructuring, although the Royal Rifle Volunteers are still trying to establish an identity. They have moved location and are rather lost in the wilderness. They emphasised however that members of the TA are looking forward to playing a much more professional role, and, at times, to being reinjected in the proper services. They were buoyant. They were worried about employers giving TA members time off, and hope that the Government can reinforce the right of people to
join the TA and to be released from work for service in it. When I was employed at the MOD, I spent a lot of time negotiating for time off for TA members. I hope that we can make things easier for them, because they play a vital role.
DARA, which was set up in April 1999, is mentioned briefly in the Select Committee report. I have sufficient experience of the agency to realise that the report's words do not clearly define its problems. I worked in the naval air repair organisation--NARO--for 39 years; it was a good experience. The organisation is mainly based in Gosport--I am sure that the hon. Member for Gosport (Mr. Viggers) will not mind my mentioning that--and many of my constituents work there.
I did not object when NARO became part of the new agency. That was the way to go and it was to be encouraged. However, the way the change was carried out leaves much to be desired. A new chief executive was parachuted in to take out the old style of management. He was bent on trying to modernise the organisation so as to integrate it with DARA--the new agency. In his clinical and surgical way, he ripped out the social fabric of the establishment and sorted out the management in short order--frightening everyone about the future. He made promises that jobs were secure and that the rationalisation, which we predicted, would not take place. The trade unions accepted his words and encouraged the work force to go with the plan rather than resist it. I was part of the team that did that, but the latest announcement is that 90 of the most highly qualified avionics craftspeople will be sacked. Our trust has been severely undermined.
I declare an interest, as a member of the Amalgamated Engineering and Electrical Union. I have long been associated with the union, and its officers normally work well and try to get on with management. However, one full-time official of the union is so incensed that he has written to my hon. Friend the Minister for the Armed Forces. I know that my hon. Friend is capable of understanding the details, but the worrying point is that trade unions have to report that they have been misled. In fact, the official uses much stronger terms than that. That is no way to reorganise DARA.
There is a fear that the whole of the establishment in Gosport will collapse, leaving us short of 1,000 jobs. If that is so, it would be a sad reflection on the Government's well-intentioned idea of creating a defence repair agency for aviation that is second to none and of strengthening the establishments at St. Athan, Sea Land and Almondbank in Scotland, if not Fleetlands in Gosport. I know that my hon. Friend the Minister has listened and is well aware of the issues.
The underlying point is that we can evolve, modernise and carry the unions and the hearts and minds of the workers with us only if we are honest. If there is a suspicion that honesty is being taken advantage of, we shall destroy the process and cause a reaction. That will result in all the bad things that we saw many years ago. I have invested 39 years of my life in the industry and I do not want to see that wasted by a chief executive who is building an empire for himself.
I listened to Members who referred to the necessary missile systems, such as the beyond visual range air-to-air missile, and to the importance of reaching decisions on
them. I am bored silly, as no doubt many are, by mention of the A400M heavy lifter. However, we had fun yesterday when my right hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones) innovatively suggested that we might try to land it on aircraft carriers. I have been pressurised by companies to mention this heavy lifter, and I believe that it is the right solution. It is geared and designed specifically to the roles that it will play in the future. Whatever the interim arrangements, I hope that it will be the long-term solution.
A strategic air tanker is also necessary, as is SIFF--successor identification friend or foe--which is the advanced version of the current system. However, we must strike a balance. I represent Portsmouth, which is heavily dependent on defence, although more on the private contracting sector than on Government provision. My ears are therefore bent from all sides. I just hope that the jobs in the companies involved are secured and that the right decisions are ultimately taken. However, I prefer some solutions to others, because they are more of a British and a European answer than an American one.
I want to touch on the European defence initiative. As a member of the Western European Union, I attended the meeting that decided to nominate me as a rapporteur for the committee considering the European armed forces and the collective capability required for their deployment. Because I did not say no, I suddenly found that I had a new job. It has been quite an eye opener, and the research that I have seen strengthens my view that we are doing exactly the right thing. Although the White Paper deals with general issues and does not specify details, it goes hand in glove with that research.
My hon. Friend the Member for Tooting (Mr. Cox) touched on the issues that worry the WEU. They include the roles of the European Union, the WEU and NATO. I was lucky that, as a member of the WEU's defence committee, I was able to visit Washington. We visited the Pentagon and spoke to senior military figures. We also spoke to the President's strategic defence adviser and we were flown to Florida to speak to General Zinny and his team, who make up America's rapid reaction force.
The people that we met expressed strong views and were committed to the Government's approach. At no time did anyone doubt it; in fact, they encouraged it. Many complimentary things were said about the strategic defence review, and it was said that we were ahead of the game. Many countries, including America, will have to go through that process and they congratulated my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and the Government on their role.
As I am a creep, may I say that the Government's Front-Bench team on defence are doing a great job? They have recently been enhanced by an extra Minister who will add more gravitas, if not gravity, to those on the Front Bench. Labour Members are extremely lucky to have such a powerful and secure team. That is enough creeping for now, and it will not get me any better answers. However, it is true that there is much sense and stability in that team. As a representative of a constituency with defence interests, I like and feel secure with its members.
"A valid Atlantic partnership cannot safely depend on a unique superpower on one side of the Atlantic, with an array of Europeans on the other side, strong in rhetoric but chronically short of coherence and muscle. Neither coherence in foreign policy nor a muscular defence will be easy to come by."
Lord Hurd gave what I would certainly understand to be intelligent and cautious support for the notion of proceeding upon the initiatives that have been launched on European security and defence policy. In that sense, he is entirely in the main stream of thinking in the United Kingdom, even though he may be slightly out of the main stream in his own party.
"assert its identity on the international scene, in particular, through the implementation of a common foreign and security policy, including the eventual framing of a common defence policy, which might in time lead to a common defence."
That is the fons et origo of the European security and defence policy.
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