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5.43 pm
Mr. Jim Murphy (Eastwood): I am delighted to participate in this important debate. Unlike other hon. Members, I have no particular military expertise, nor do I want to champion any specific spending project in the SDR or the White Paper.
My only experience of the armed forces was as the first graduate of the 1997 intake on the armed forces parliamentary scheme, through the Royal Navy. That gave me a limited understanding of the challenges that face our men and women in the Navy and in the other armed forces.
My other experience of military service was trying to avoid it. I grew up in South Africa during the apartheid years, when it was compulsory for all white, able-bodied men, at the age of 18, to join the South African army and to do their damnedest for that regime. That was not something to which I took kindly--hence my Scottish accent. I have the South African army to thank for that.
I shall concentrate on four matters. First, the need for defence policy not to be led by constituency demands--or rather, that it should not be led by anything other than our foreign policy. Secondly, I shall refer much more briefly to the need for mobile armed forces. Thirdly, I shall mention the importance of Europe and European co-operation and, finally, I shall make a brief comment about procurement issues.
It is essential that all decisions about our armed forces and defence are based on our foreign policy. Our foreign policy should not be determined primarily by our defence capability; it should be the other way round whenever possible. This country, as a former colonial power, will I hope--I do not think that this is overly naive--enter a period in which it has considerable influence in the world. Some people may wish to make churlish party political points about that, but Britain has an opportunity, with the correct leadership, to have an influence that is way beyond our size, population and, possibly, beyond our spend on military hardware.
That is partly as a result of our historical friendship and relationship with the United States of America, and largely because we shall, hopefully, play a positive role in the military and defence debates in the European Union. I also hope that it is because of our relationship, as a former colonial power, with our Commonwealth friends. Perhaps, unlike any other nation, we are able to exert such influence throughout the world.
The hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr. Duncan Smith) alluded to the speech that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made in Chicago about a year ago. My right hon. Friend said that, when dictatorships prevail, we have a moral imperative to become involved. He considered that that was important to the United Kingdom and to protect those who are vulnerable. The question for foreign policy is how we turn that moral imperative into reality. That means examining our structures, military kit and the people whom we put
on the front line to see whether we can provide the correct framework and the correct decision making to put that moral imperative into action.
Many comments have been made about how our humanitarian support has worked in the past in Montserrat and elsewhere. We have also mounted peace support operations, such as that in East Timor, where HMS Glasgow and others have helped the Australian-led force, and we have engaged in conflict resolution in its widest possible sense. For example, the notes attached to the White Paper identify that a British team is helping with conflict resolution of a different sort in South Africa. It is trying to bring about national reconciliation in the armed forces by creating a national defence force that integrates the South African defence force of the apartheid era and the liberation army, Umkhonto we Sizwe, of the African National Congress. Such a defence force would represent the whole country and would remove the lack of faith towards the South African defence forces that was understandably and rightly felt by the majority of the population. I am pleased that a British defence training team is playing a role in that.
The more substantial issue about conflict resolution, however, is about our right, as members of the European Union, the Western European Union, the United Nations and NATO, to take the moral imperative and to turn it into action. I do not want to be deliberately controversial, but I wish to express a firm belief. In recent speeches, the Secretary-General of the United Nations, Kofi Annan, has talked about the redefinition of state sovereignty and the globalisation of regional conflicts. The sovereignty of an individual state is not an excuse to protect a dictator or tyrant who oppresses an indigenous population. Increasingly, regional action--perhaps with a UN mandate--might be the means by which some regional conflicts can be overcome. I hope that the Minister will have time to deal with that in his wind-up.
There are conflicts throughout the world, and perhaps none is more bloody than the one in Angola. I have long argued for UN backing for a regional force, and I would be delighted if the Government used whatever weight they have to try to bring that about. The slaughter in Angola, which is almost unrestricted and is not spoken of, is a blight on that continent.
In his Ditchley speech of June 1998, the Secretary-General of the United Nations said:
Thankfully, in the main, conflicts will no longer come to our forces. They will have to travel, hopefully considerable distances, to the point of conflict or theatre. I say "hopefully" because if the trouble is not coming to our armed forces, equally it is not coming to our civilian population. The White Paper makes much of that point, but there is always more that can and should be done to increase the agility, adaptability and mobility of our armed forces.
Much is said in the White Paper about power projection and investment in the two new aircraft carriers, but I should like there to be an even greater emphasis, if
possible, on rapid reaction. Once a decision is taken in an international forum, sometimes after consensus has laboriously been achieved, we find that the international military hardware is unable to be deployed and the process of delivering a threat and projecting power is delayed.
There must also be a projection of humanitarian support. I do not think that it is uncharitable of me to say that I was disappointed that, in his almost hour-long speech, the shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green, made very little mention of the British armed forces' role in providing humanitarian aid. That is a fair criticism.
I am not a specialist on European issues. The hon. Member for Romsey (Mr. Colvin) eloquently listed the different options for the methods and mechanics of achieving synergy between NATO, the EU and the WEU, and I listened to his comments with great interest. I believe that, as a matter of principle, it is absolutely Europe's responsibility to take control of more of its own destiny. There are no circumstances in which we should rely extensively on the United States. America is often criticised, sometimes with reason.
We should not underestimate the role that the US has played, but we should try where possible to achieve a European solution to problems that are European in the wider sense of the continent, and not rely on the US to the extent that we did in Kosovo and other conflicts. That means having a joint rapid reaction force and the political and military structures to back that up.
Finally, I turn to defence procurement. My hon. Friend the Member for Jarrow (Mr. Hepburn) talked about six roll on-roll off ferries, and I do not want to compete with him. He made a powerful case for the building to take place in or near his constituency. However, the River Clyde area contains excellent shipbuilding facilities and talented personnel; my own father has worked there for several years. The River Clyde has a proud history of shipbuilding and it could have a bright future if the contract for the six ro-ro ferries were awarded in the area.
With those comments, I broadly endorse the contents of the defence White Paper.
Mr. Tim Collins (Westmorland and Lonsdale):
I shall pursue several of the points raised by the hon. Member for Eastwood (Mr. Murphy), but first I should like to put on the record my support for his congratulating our armed forces on their work in humanitarian aid projects throughout the world. The House and the country can rightly take a degree of pride in the quality of our armed forces' work, which is internationally recognised.
In a debate as important as this, about the national security of the United Kingdom, the starting point must be the threat assessment. The Secretary of State was relatively silent on that matter, but the White Paper is, for this Government, fairly clear. One of the first questions we must ask is whether Her Majesty's Government believe that the world is becoming safer or more dangerous. Paragraph 7 mentions the Government's attention focusing, as long as two years ago at the time of the strategic defence review, on
We then have to ask what that means in terms of the strength of our armed forces. The Government set out explicitly their views on what Europe as a whole should be doing. In paragraph 17 of the White Paper, they talk about the need for burden sharing in terms similar to those employed by the hon. Member for Eastwood, adding that
There appears to be a degree of inconsistency in the Government's approach. There is something rather charming about the way in which the Prime Minister lectures our fellow members of the European Union on the need to reduce bureaucracy when he is increasing it at home, to cut taxes when he is putting those up, and to reduce trade union power when he is doing the opposite in the United Kingdom. Now, on defence matters, he is telling everyone else in Europe that they should strengthen their armed forces when he is weakening those of the UK. The best one can say of that strategy is that it is inconsistent.
We then focus our attention on the Government's assessment of some of the fundamental questions facing our country. It is notable that in the debate so far, not a single reference has been made to the independent British nuclear deterrent. That would appear curious to anyone whose memory stretches back to the 1980s, when that was a central issue. One wonders whether the reason for its absence from the debate is that Her Majesty's Government think that there are no nuclear issues to address. In paragraph 8 of the White Paper, they say that they conclude, as they did at the time of the strategic defence review, that
However, the context of paragraph 8 is the debate about active defence against ballistic missiles. My hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr. Duncan Smith), the shadow Secretary of State for Defence, spoke eloquently about that. He put to the Government--we await a response, and I hope that the Minister will respond in some detail--the assessment made to the United States Senate two years ago that proliferation of ballistic missile technology is likely to
evolve by 2003 to the point where intercontinental ballistic missiles could threaten the continental United States.
If rogue states can threaten the continental United States, one does not have to be a master of geography to work out that probably at least by that date, if not earlier, some of those rogue states, which are geographically much closer to the United Kingdom than to the continental United States, could threaten the UK. We need to know the Government's view on ballistic missile defence. If it is the Government's policy--I very much hope that it is--to maintain an independent British nuclear deterrent, on the basis that although there may not be a ballistic missile threat to the UK now, one may evolve, what is their position on ballistic missile defence?
Will the Government take the same view as the United States that if that technology is available, it should be deployed? Will they take the view, which seems to be the majority view among our European partners, that for some reason such a ballistic missile defence would be undesirable? Will they take the worst of all positions, which was accurately described in an excellent speech by the right hon. and learned Member for North-East Fife (Mr. Campbell), and pretend that the issue simply will not arise, hoping that it will go away?
I can tell Ministers on the Treasury Bench that the problem will not go away. Anyone watching the presidential debates on either side of the political divide in the US will see that it is a live issue there. All four front-running presidential candidates, both Democrat and Republican, have made it clear that they must address the issue. It is highly likely to arise, whoever succeeds President Clinton and whichever party controls Congress after the November elections this year.
We need to hear the Government's view. Has it moved on in the past couple of months? When do they expect to announce their conclusions? When can we begin to hear the UK Government's view on the matter?
I refer again to the excellent speech from the right hon. and learned Member for North-East Fife. If I may say so in his absence, it was a speech of such fine quality that it underlines how fortunate all other parties are that the right hon. and learned Gentleman is not leader of his party, and instead it is the pale shadow of the right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Inverness, West (Mr. Kennedy) who holds the leadership.
The right hon. and learned Member for North-East Fife went through the list of rogue states and seemed to conclude that, because there had been some positive political developments in the case of some--he referred to the recent Iranian elections and the re-establishment of diplomatic relations with Libya, for example--we need not concern ourselves with the threat.
"State frontiers should no longer be seen as watertight protection for war criminals or mass murderers".
That has to form part of the context in which we debate defence issues, because if we accept that there should be no hiding place for tyrants within national borders, that has an impact on our defence policy. We will have to build a defence structure, purchase and invest in the necessary kit, and train our brilliant armed forces personnel to deliver on that foreign policy objective.
5.55 pm
"the consequences of the break-up of states, and on ethnic and religious conflict, population and environmental pressures, competition for scarce resources, on the effects of illegal drugs, terrorism and crime. Nothing in the past two years has changed that assessment."
22 Feb 2000 : Column 1458
The Government add that recent events have, if anything,
That would lead the House to the belief that the Government take the view that the world in which we live is becoming, if not more dangerous, at least no safer.
"reinforced some of our concerns".
"Above all, this means strengthening European nations' armed forces."
Logically, one would conclude that we are debating a White Paper issued by a Government who are increasing defence spending in the light of their threat assessment and of the homily they have delivered to other European nations. However, that is not what the Government are doing. On the contrary, since they came to power in 1997, they have set in train a sequence of defence reductions. The details have been supplied by my hon. Friend the Member for Romsey (Mr. Colvin) and I do not intend to repeat them.
"no significant ballistic missile threat to the UK and its interests will exist for some years."
I imagine that some Labour Members will find that assessment exciting, because they believe that it means that an independent British nuclear deterrent is no longer needed. However, Her Majesty's Government--I give them credit for this--appear to believe that we should retain Trident, in case such a threat should emerge in the future.
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