| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
6.45 pm
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mr. John Spellar): I thank the hon. Member for Salisbury (Mr. Key) for his balanced response to the debate. It was so balanced that I fear for his future, but I hope that we see him when we resume the debate next Monday.
Other contributions were interesting, too. The right hon. Member for Fylde (Mr. Jack) revealed himself as a conspiracy theorist, and his careful examination of a photograph suggested an early flirtation with the communist party. He also revealed his previous incarnation as Financial Secretary to the Treasury when he skilfully evaded the direct question from my hon. Friend the Member for Eastwood (Mr. Murphy).
The hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Mr. Collins)--or does he represent Epping Forest?--managed to avoid the fact that the vast majority of those who supported Chamberlain in that famous debate belonged to the Conservative party.
At one stage, the contribution from the right hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Sir A. Hamilton) was making me extremely angry, but he started to expound on delivery mechanisms for weapons of mass destruction. I thought that that amounted to friendly fire that he was pouring on his colleagues on the Front Bench.
Many valuable points were made in the debate, and I shall deal with them later. First, however, I should like to look briefly at the achievements of our armed forces over the past year.
Mr. Duncan Smith:
My question does not relate directly to the Minister's winding-up speech, but rather to something that the Secretary of State said earlier when he was asked about the arrangements for Northern Ireland that were discussed in today's press. Since he made his
Will the Minister for the Armed Forces, in consultation with the Secretary of State, rule out any token destruction of weapons--whether or not it is part of a special ceremony--by our armed forces in Northern Ireland? If he does not do so, the ambiguity will continue.
Mr. Spellar:
Like the hon. Gentleman, I heard what my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said. It seemed to me completely unambiguous. I have been in the Chamber listening to the debate, so I have not seen any press reports. I heard very clearly what my right hon. Friend said, and I think that the House did as well.
In Bosnia, we continue to make a major contribution as part of the NATO force helping to create the safe environment needed to rebuild the country.
In Sierra Leone, we have worked closely, and in a truly joined-up way, with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and with the Department for International Development to help bring peace and rebuild society after the bloody civil war in that country.
In East Timor, all three services were part of the Australian-led international forces that restored peace and order after violent militias had terrorised local people. Our forces did a splendid job. Indeed, our intervention in East Timor was a classic example of how our forces should be used--going in early and using their particular skills to make a real difference, but withdrawing when the situation stabilises and others are in a position to take over.
In the Gulf, the Royal Air Force continues to patrol the southern and northern no-fly zones to make it harder for Saddam Hussein to persecute the minorities who live there. Royal Navy Sea Harriers based on HMS Illustrious also take part in work that is important and dangerous. I should like to pay special tribute to the RAF crews who place themselves at risk every day to stop Saddam repressing people who cannot help themselves.
I regret that, on many occasions, we have had to take military action against the Iraqi forces that try to shoot down our aircraft conducting those humanitarian patrols. If Saddam stopped trying to kill our pilots, we would stop responding to his aggression--it is as simple as that. However, our response is always careful, precise and proportionate.
As the House knows, Northern Ireland remains our biggest operational deployment. Our armed forces remain ready to support the police for as long as they need to. I repeat to the hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr. Duncan Smith) that I thought that the answer given earlier by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State was utterly unambiguous.
Mr. Duncan Smith:
I have a simple request for the Minister, and I do not mind if he confers with the Secretary of State before he answers. It is clear that Downing street appears to be briefing that what is happening in Northern Ireland is different from what the Secretary of State claimed earlier. Will the Minister confirm that the Government rule out any token
Mr. Spellar:
I repeat that the answer given by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State was absolutely clear on that point, and I do not understand the hon. Gentleman's difficulty. I am sure that he will have a clear understanding of what was said earlier in the debate when he reads Hansard tomorrow.
Then there is Kosovo. We are still in the process of analysing the results of the crisis, and we will publish a report later this year. There are two key points to stress against the revisionist theory of history, as epitomised by the right hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell. He commented on the credibility of NATO, but given his contribution, his credibility suffered more than NATO's.
First, let us not forget that our operation was successful. We achieved our objective of ridding Kosovo of Milosevic's brutality. Indeed, had we not done so, many of those who are carping would be damning us for inaction. Nevertheless, we accept that we have very hard work to do to make Kosovo a truly peaceful, tolerant and European land. That will take time.
The right hon. and learned Member for North-East Fife (Mr. Campbell) talked about being on the brink of disaster in Kosovo. I think that that is exaggerating the position somewhat, even looking at yesterday's pictures. Yes, there was civil disorder, but it was well short of a breakdown of order--thanks, in many cases, to the magnificent contribution of our troops.
Mr. Menzies Campbell:
My judgment is based not on what happened yesterday, which appeared to be capable of being contained, but on the experience of my right hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr. Ashdown), who visited Kosovo before Christmas. I think that the Minister should have a conversation with my right hon. Friend; he may then modify his view.
Mr. Spellar:
I am always pleased to have conversations with any Members who have been visiting our troops and getting first-hand experience. I went to Bosnia myself just a couple of weeks ago.
Our forces there and our forces throughout the campaign performed magnificently. The Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force played an important part in the air campaign that defeated Milosevic, and the British Army has been at the centre of the NATO force that entered Kosovo to restore peace last June, and has been keeping the peace with great professionalism ever since.
I should like to turn to some of the detailed points that have been raised during the debate, although I suspect that I will not cover them all tonight and may return to some others next week, or in correspondence. The hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green spoke about smart procurement and tried to claim that it was part of a long-term plan in which the Conservatives had already been engaged. It is true that some elements of it had been in a number of reports over a number of years. The problem is that the previous Government did not implement them. We blew the dust off those reports; we took elements out of them and incorporated them. We worked with our advisers, with the Department and with industry in a constructive way that had not been possible
under the previous Administration to achieve a smart procurement system. In both the Defence Procurement Agency and the Defence Logistics Organisation we are changing the way in which we obtain our equipment.
The right hon. Member for Fylde demonstrated this with regard to the future offensive air system, and I thank him for his comments. The integrated project teams are working together and hope, through their work, to reduce the time from the main gate to in-service date by up to five years. It is not just about money but about shortening the product cycle time. That is a key part of the changes in procurement in industry that we have now brought into government.
On frigates, the IPT has identified the type-23 support cost savings of more than £300 million. On Challenger 2, as mentioned by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, cost improvements were identified that could yield some £400 million over the life of the tank. They have already gone firm on half of those. On air-to-air refuelling, the IPT has increased VC10 availability, another key component of smart procurement, as well as the financial savings. There have also been cost gains of 20 per cent. That is due to working with industry, harnessing the skills and expertise aptly described by the right hon. Member for Fylde.
My hon. Friend the Member for Tooting (Mr. Cox), a member of both the WEU and the AEEU, drew attention to the work in Europe, as did the hon. Member for Romsey (Mr. Colvin), particularly identifying the role for non-members of the European Union within NATO. We have made very clear our strong support for the principle of non-discrimination in that case.
We were also asked about the role of the European Parliament; we do not see a role for it in European defence. The hon. Member for Romsey rightly asked whether we see NATO as the cornerstone of our defence. Not only do we see it continuing as the cornerstone, but article 5 is, and will continue to be, the basis of our security.
With all the focus on the European security and defence identity, we should really be considering the defence capabilities initiative. That is the work instigated at Washington to ensure that we have not merely institutions and architectures but the capability to deliver, so that Europe does not spend two thirds of the sum that the United States spends on defence but get nowhere near the capability that it has; and equally, so that--as a number of hon. Members said--the US does not have to contribute 75 or 80 per cent. of the necessary air power, as it did during Kosovo.
That policy is not merely right from the European side: it is also critical to sustaining and maintaining the United States' engagement in NATO. Long term, we will not be able to persuade the US Congress to continue its substantial expenditure and commitment overseas, if it believes that Europe is not bearing its fair share of the burden. ESDI is not in contradiction to NATO; it is critical to the long-term sustainability of NATO and to maintaining political support for it.
On Europe, Lord Hurd now seems to be a non-person in the Conservative lexicon--joining a long list of distinguished suspects. I say to Conservative Members--in the firm expectation that they will take no notice--that I have observed that process before from the inside. I
assure them that the mutual self-destruction of a party can take a long time and it guarantees a long period on the Opposition Benches. I complain not--I merely observe in the sure expectation that nothing will be done about it.
The right hon. and learned Member for North-East Fife mentioned equipment shortages. He should get away from questions put by his researcher and intended to dramatise a situation. They do not bear any resemblance to the reality. Many of the planes that he described as being not available were available at one or two hours' notice and with some minor work. The RAF's definition of planes that are ready is: those that are ready to go there and then.
The right hon. and learned Gentleman talked about tanks. Challenger 2 will be going out to the Balkans shortly and it is a magnificent tank. He also mentioned SA80 and Clansman. The report in question received such dramatic presentation, but the cameraman who filmed me when I described the situation said, "I see. There's no other news today then." In both cases, the report from Colonel Gibson of the Parachute Regiment stated that, overall, the operation was an outstanding success. The media chose to ignore that.
In the Balkans, the issue was not the SA80 rifle, but the light machine gun version. We recognise the difficulties. We also recognise that, in certain extreme temperatures, the SA80 has some difficulties, although it is a capable and accurate weapon. That is why we have been conducting tests and why I will receive a report shortly to show how we should advance.
We inherited Clansman. There was a six-year delay in the Bowman project, and we had an industrial system that would have been incapable of replacing it. We have had to direct the turn-round of that programme.
I stress that we were not taking any risks with the lives of our service men and women in any of those operations. People say that the Territorial Army did not have the signals equipment because it had gone to operations. Yes, operations are at the forefront; no, we do not take risks. General Jackson made that extremely clear in his media interviews at Christmas.
The hon. Member for West Renfrewshire (Mr. Graham) requested a meeting on Bishopton. I understand that the Department of the Minister for Defence Procurement is dealing with that matter and that, as the Minister responsible, she will be glad to see him. Even with the order that he mentioned, jobs at Bishopton would have halved. He has to accept that there has been a reduction in munitions purchase throughout Europe. Rationalisation is taking place. Indeed, that is why we have entered a long-term partnership with Royal Ordnance plc to sustain its business for the future.
My hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, North (Mr. Rapson)--
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |