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Mr. Edward Davey: Let me begin by discussing how this issue is likely to be dealt with in the other place if the Government reject the new clause--which is where the hon. Member for West Dorset (Mr. Letwin) ended. Although I have been a Member of the House for a only short time, it is clear that these events are almost unprecedented. I have served on a number of Finance Bill Committees, as well as on the Committees that brought independence to the Bank of England and set up the Greater London Authority. The Liberal Democrats often found common cause with the Government--with whom we voted fairly often against amendments tabled by the Conservatives--but that has not occurred on this occasion because the issues to which the Bill gives rise go above party politics: as many members of the Committee said, they are constitutionally important, so taking a party line and playing party politics is not appropriate.
Conservative Front Benchers and Liberal Democrats have together tabled the new clause, and I pay tribute to the ingenuity of the hon. Member for West Dorset for dreaming up a measure that gives the Government so many options and so many ways out of the predicament in which they have managed to land themselves. Their lordships will read our proceedings and note that the new clause is wide-ranging and that Members of different parties have come together to support it. Not only Liberal Democrat and Conservative peers but independent- minded Labour peers and Cross Benchers will place some weight on the fact that we are witnessing a rather unusual process, and will recognise why we have agreed on it. As the hon. Gentleman said, when they recognise that, they will act accordingly to uphold Parliament's powers and rights in relation to Government accounts.
Mr. Letwin:
I thoroughly agree with the sentiments that the hon. Gentleman is expressing. Does he agree that we are also considering Executive control? This is a case not of the Labour party voting in a certain way but of a Government using their majority in the House of Commons to assert Executive power. We are looking to our friends and others in the other place to reassert the power of Parliament against the Executive.
Mr. Davey:
The hon. Gentleman is exactly right. It is important that those in the other place realise that that is what we are about, because, as he said, they may have to fight hard and be prepared to push the Government to the
Mr. Letwin:
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way again. His remarks are of the greatest importance because they will be read by those in the other place. With that in mind, does he share my experience, which is that some Labour Members who shall remain nameless have said privately that they have considerable sympathy with our position? For the sake of causing them no embarrassment, I shall not name those hon. Members, but is the hon. Gentleman also aware that one or two have said in open court--on television--that they have some sympathy with our position?
Mr. Davey:
The hon. Gentleman is right. I have had similar conversations with Labour Members, and I am tempted to suggest that even Ministers have some sympathy with our arguments, although they have not put that on the record. When we were debating clause 5 and an amendment similar to new clause 1 in Committee, the Minister said that she was open-minded and would think about the issue. She made no promises or guarantees, but she was at least prepared to think about it, and I like to believe that that is because she and her Treasury colleagues have some sympathy with our case.
The Chief Secretary spent many years in opposition and he is probably well aware of the frustrations felt by an Opposition trying to do their job and hold the Executive to account without having the proper information. On Budget day and when the public expenditure plans are published, we are given figures. We have great difficulty in understanding or believing what the Government are trying to tell us, so we cannot do our job properly. That is the crux of the issue.
Mr. Letwin:
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, oddly, the situation that he so vividly describes will worsen if the Bill is passed without the new clauses and amendments? Members of this House and the other place will then have before them a balance sheet and details of cash flow and profit and loss, and will think that they understand what is going on as we do not because we do not have such clear information. They will not in fact
Mr. Davey:
The hon. Gentleman is trying to push his argument slightly too far. I want the House to be in no doubt that Liberal Democrat Members believe that moving to resource accounting and budgeting is a major step forward, and that the information will assist us in our work. The hon. Gentleman is right to say that the information will come with the same caveats and problems as all the information that we have received from previous Governments, as it will be the Government who set the definitions and frameworks. However, the quality of the information will be better. It will not be perfect, and that is why new clause 1 is needed, but the hon. Gentleman goes too far in suggesting that we will be in a worse position if the Bill is passed.
Mr. David Davis:
I had not intended to participate in this part of the debate, but the hon. Gentleman's point strikes me as a little doubtful. We all agree that resource accounting, at its broadest, will be a major advance in the way that the country is run. However, we should not ignore that, in moving from what is effectively a cash system of accounting, which is hard to manipulate, to a system that involves many depreciations and other considerations, we are opening up judgments that will, without the new clause, give the Government more scope for manipulation, and therefore for corrupting the benefit that we all desire.
Mr. Davey:
I take the right hon. Gentleman's point that there is a trade-off between the potential for manipulation and the fact that we will have so much more information. The problem with the existing cash accounting system is that it is almost meaningless, and the data that we have make it incredibly difficult to analyse what is going on in Departments.
The extra information and improvements that we will receive through resource accounting and budgeting, albeit with the problems that we are debating, are of such an order that the Bill is a step forward. That is why we have been supportive of the move and have always tried to persuade the Government that accepting the new clause and the amendments, which have been jointly tabled by Liberal Democrat and Conservative Members, is in their interests and follows the logic of what they are trying to do.
Mr. Letwin:
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr. Davis) for intervening. I wholly accept the point made by the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey) that the move to resource accounting is overwhelmingly important and that we should not resist it in any way, but does he agree that, if the new clause is not accepted, not only will a golden opportunity have been missed, but until the problem is corrected, the situation will paradoxically have moved backwards? That would be a tragedy. It does not mean that there is an argument for not going ahead with resource accounting--
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael J. Martin):
Order. Since I entered the Chamber a few minutes ago, I have noticed that interventions are extremely long. We cannot have such long interventions.
Mr. Davey:
I understand the point that the hon. Member for West Dorset makes. New clause 1 is designed
When the hon. Member for West Dorset introduced the new clause, he explained how independent bodies that already exist in the UK and abroad, and bodies that could be devised, would all fit the terms of the new clause.
Mr. George Stevenson (Stoke-on-Trent, South):
I have listened to the debate with great interest, although I was not a member of the Standing Committee, and I have heard the forceful arguments that have been advanced.
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