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5.45 am
Mr. Clifton-Brown: If the Government reject the new clause, they will signal to the public that they do not want clarity. Does my hon. Friend think that a future Conservative Government would introduce an enlightened new clause such as this one?
Mr. Fabricant: I sincerely hope so.
Mr. Letwin: I can give my hon. Friends an absolute guarantee that if a Conservative Government are elected at the next general election, one of our first actions will be to ensure not only that there are proper, independently set standards for these matters, but that there is full validation by the CAG throughout Government.
Mr. Fabricant: That is a great reassurance--not for me, but for the people of the United Kingdom. It means that a future Conservative Government will be obsessed with achievement and not with spin and hype. Spin and hype can be hidden only by lack of clarity, data and transparency. That is what objection to new clause 4 would achieve.
This provision is the acid test.
Mr. Chris Pond (Gravesham):
Here is the punch line.
Mr. Fabricant:
As the hon. Gentleman says, it is the punch line: can this Government achieve? Can they deliver? Are they proud to show that they can deliver and achieve, or will they be opaque and conceal their lack of achievement by objecting to openness and new clause 4? In the minutes to come, I hope that they will choose open government.
Mr. Rendel:
I have only two points to make on the new clause, to which I am proud to have my name, and those of PAC colleagues, attached.
First, it is ironic that in a Bill that is mainly concerned with updating how the Government hold their accounts to a method of accounting that has long been used in local government and business, the Government should nevertheless fail to update how performance reporting is monitored to a method that is already used--at the Government's demand--in local government. It seems that they are all too disinclined to follow the old saying, "What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander."
As so often, the Government are imposing measures on local government that they are not prepared to follow themselves. They would be well advised to follow the line that they have taken with local government and ensure independent monitoring of the performance reporting that they are introducing.
Secondly, if proper and objective monitoring of performance reporting is introduced, it can lead to only two results. Many people have said that both would be of value to the Government. If the monitoring proves that some aspect of the reporting is not being properly carried out, that can only be of value to the Government. If it shows that the reporting is being properly carried out, the Government would welcome that, because they would be proud of it.
Although the argument has been well made that to point out that performance reporting is not being carried out can be of value to the Government because they can make changes, I understand that they might be worried that that might lead to some embarrassment. That is the only possible rationale for their objecting to the new clause. If the Government object to the new clause because they expect to be found out and think that external monitoring of their performance reporting will prove that it has not been properly carried out, that shows an incredible lack of confidence in their ability properly to introduce performance reporting. I am sorry to see that lack of confidence, and showing it is a matter of embarrassment for the Government. They should be shamed into accepting the new clause.
Mr. Syms:
I shall briefly support the new clause. My right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr. Davis) rightly said that the real prize of resource accounting was to measure performance and that the Bill was silent about that. His new clause is good and progressive. The Government should consider it seriously.
All of us in political life believe that it is important to measure output. I am sure that it is sometimes difficult to measure how productive we are as elected Members, but it is important to measure the output of government.
Mr. Swayne:
My hon. Friend refers to output, but how would he measure it? I think that he would agree that length would not be an appropriate measure. That is perhaps a weakness of the new clause in that it does not discuss what the measure should be.
Mr. Syms:
The new clause is drafted in such a way as to make policy decisions a matter for politicians and the Government and that is quite right. However, validation, measurement and ensuring the admissibility, relevance and reliability of performance data are important, too.
Prime Minister's Question Time was mentioned earlier. The Prime Minister throws statistics about and it was suggested that they give him great support. I do not think that that is so, but there is another more serious point. We have not mentioned Select Committees. In the heat of the Chamber, each side throws its preferred statistics at the other and, no doubt, in the whole range of government, we can find things that work well and things that go wrong.
However, we want to ensure that the Select Committee system works properly and the new clause, which would give the Comptroller and Auditor General a greater role in validating the information that is produced, could enable them to do a much better job. In the longer term, that would make a more profound difference to the way
in which government operates than has the yah-boo traditional politics that we have in the Chamber. That is the key point that I wish to make.
All Governments dislike interference. I have no doubt that if we were in office, we would be a little sniffy about having outside bodies coming in.
Mr. Clifton-Brown:
My hon. Friend touched on the important subject of Select Committees. The Public Accounts Committee can point out where public funds are being misappropriated and, under the new clause, that process would be that much more effective. Departmental Select Committees can follow up on the shortcomings in a way that the PAC cannot possibly do because it examines the whole gamut of government expenditure. His remarks are frightfully important.
Mr. Syms:
It is also important that Select Committees have good information, and we all know that they are under-resourced. However, the movement to resource accounting and the proposal in the new clause to allow the CAG to become involved in the proper measurement of the Government's targets and objectives might enable us to have more objective debates in the quieter Committees upstairs. In them, it is possible to press Ministers on their priorities. That is better than the yah-boo politics in which we all sometimes engage in the Chamber.
There is a real problem with the statistics commission, which will be a creation of government and whose members will be appointed by Ministers. It is important to validate what we do. Measurement and objectivity in relation to the outputs of government would dramatically improve political debate.
My hon. Friend the Member for New Forest, West (Mr. Swayne) asked whether it was proper to involve the CAG. I believe that it is. To all of us who aspire to honest and honourable government, validated measurement is important. My right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden mentioned how honest our government system is. We must be grateful for that. We should not be complacent but try to improve debate. The Bill gives us the opportunity to improve the quality of information provided to Select Committees. Not to endorse new clause 4 would be a tremendous mistake. Ministers should think carefully before they dismiss that opportunity.
Miss Melanie Johnson:
I quite enjoyed the turn by the hon. Member for New Forest, West (Mr. Swayne). I thought that it was a bid to become a member of the Public Accounts Committee. I was not sure how to interpret the large grin on the face of its Chairman as that contribution developed.
This is one of those occasions when one looks around the Chamber, notices that it is nigh on 6 am and says to oneself, "Would the public think we were doing a good job? What would be the output and outcome measures for our performance?" Were the public watching, although I hope that many of them are asleep--
Mr. Fabricant:
The hon. Lady was.
Miss Johnson:
I have not been asleep at any point. I have been here since 3.30 yesterday afternoon, unlike the hon. Gentleman.
Probably no member of the public would think that the House has been doing a very good job. Perhaps that is something on which we should reflect.
I was impressed by the idealism of the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey) in his desire to arrive at consensus at about 5 am. I have not noticed any consensus; nor is it likely at 5 am.
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