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6 am
On amendment No. 20, clause 7 as originally drafted left the form of the CAG's audit opinion entirely to his discretion. That would have enabled him to report on the regularity of the accounts prepared under the clause when he thought that necessary, but the Government have no objection to making it a statutory requirement for him to report on the regularity of those accounts if that is what he wants. We have, therefore, tabled the amendment, as we agreed to do in Committee.
The Government oppose new clause 4. We have already committed ourselves to reporting annually to Parliament and the public on outturn against performance targets. That will be done through departmental reports, beginning this spring, and the Government's annual report, which will be published in the summer. There is no need to make that a statutory requirement and doing so would lead to inflexibility. For example, the public service agreements relate to three years, mirroring spending plans, so performance assessments tied narrowly to a particular financial year may not be as useful as giving Parliament the very latest outturn. The Government recognise that if PSAs are to affect accountability and raise public service performance, which is what they are aimed at, the information that supports them must be credible.
Mr. Letwin:
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way because I had not realised that she has been supplied
Miss Johnson:
I did not say that, any more than I said the things that the hon. Gentleman quoted from Committee proceedings in isolation. I said that in some cases tying an issue to a particular financial year may not be as useful as giving Parliament the very latest outturn. Different assessments of what is the useful information need to be made at different times. That is an advantage of moving to PSAs. They will affect accountability and raise public service performance as a result.
Hon. Members have commented on the work of the new independent statistics commission, which we think is important in this regard, and the future of performance information generally. It would be premature to introduce any statutory requirement at this time as both are undergoing considerable development as we speak. Work needs to be done to achieve coherence, which was referred to by the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton. [Interruption.] I nearly disturbed him.
The right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden commented wisely across the piece on the value of outputs and outcomes and the credibility and integrity of the figures. I could not agree more that they are very important. I also agree that a revolution is taking place in respect of what we can do and how we can manage the public sector and our public services for the greater good of the public, whom we in the House serve. I strongly support placing greater emphasis on evidence-based policy making, as do the Government in all their activities, but the new clause is not the way forward at this point. However, we agree with the import of the changes and the direction in which they ought to take us. We have in hand a number of measures that we believe will take the project forward substantially.
Mr. David Davis:
I thank the Minister for the various Government amendments that have been tabled in response to questions raised in Committee. They are helpful and constructive.
I shall not waste another 15 minutes by pressing new clause 4 to a vote. That is not because I am persuaded by the Minister's arguments; indeed, I hope that in my meetings with the Chief Secretary we will have a more constructive exchange.
Miss Melanie Johnson:
The hon. Member for Lichfield (Mr. Fabricant) is very keen to have a vote on the new clause.
Mr. Davis:
He will have to object to my seeking permission to withdraw the motion in a moment, then. I am conscious of the fact that the Economic Secretary has a Select Committee meeting at 9.45 am, so I want to delay her no longer than is absolutely necessary.
I am glad to hear the Economic Secretary talk about the importance of evidence-based policy development. That is the single most important element of the development of resource accounting, all technical aspects and costs apart. That is why the new clause represents the largest missed opportunity in the Bill. That is sad, because this is not a matter of partisan politics; it is a matter of the delivery of public services, which is of common interest to hon.
Members on both sides of the House. Although I am not persuaded by the hon. Lady's arguments, I do not want to waste time having a futile vote, and I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Motion and clause, by leave, withdrawn.
Mr. Timms:
I beg to move amendment No. 36, in page 2, leave out lines 15 to 24 and insert--
The amendment provides for Consolidated Fund and national loans fund credit requisitions and payment orders to be approved by two officers of the Treasury from a panel of authorised signatories. It builds on amendments tabled in Committee by the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr. Davis) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, West (Mr. Williams), which we accepted in principle. This amendment takes them forward.
The amendments tabled in Committee would have required that Consolidated Fund credit requisitions be approved by a duly authorised officer of the Treasury. Current practice is for such requisitions to be approved by two such officers, rather than one. That applies also to national loans fund requisitions and to payment instructions for both funds. We think that the Bill should make that current practice a statutory requirement, and our amendment achieves that.
The amendment also restructures much of clause 3 to make it clear that the form of requests under section 20 of the Exchequer and Audit Departments Act 1866, unlike those relating to payments from the Consolidated Fund and the national loans fund, do not need to be approved by the CAG.
I hope that the amendment will be welcomed by the whole House.
Mr. Letwin:
I will perhaps surprise the Minister by telling him that I welcome the amendment. I have been unable to find anything in it to complain about, so I shall shut up and continue to welcome it in silence.
Mr. David Davis:
As I was one of the Members who raised the matter, I shall say briefly that I welcome the amendment, which seems entirely constructive and proper.
Amendment agreed to.
Mr. Timms:
I beg to move amendment No. 22, in page 5, line 5, at end insert--
'(1) Subsection (2) applies to a requisition or order under--
(a) section 13 or 15 of the Exchequer and Audit Departments Act 1866 (payments out of the Consolidated Fund), or
(b) section 1(3) of the National Loans Act 1968 (payments out of the National Loans Fund).
(2) A requisition or order to which this subsection applies--
(a) may be produced, authenticated and transmitted in any manner which the Treasury, with the approval of the Comptroller and Auditor General, decide to adopt, but
(b) shall be accompanied by evidence of the approval of two officers of the Treasury appointed for that purpose.
(3) A request or order under section 20 of the Exchequer and Audit Departments Act 1866 (government stock and annuities) may be produced, authenticated and transmitted in any manner which the Treasury decide to adopt.'.
Amendments made: No. 18, in page 3, line 2, after "accounts", insert--
'(a) present a true and fair view,
(b)''.
No. 19, in page 3, line 4, at end insert--
', and
(c) accord with guidance issued by the Treasury about the inclusion of an explanation of the difference between an item appearing in a department's estimate and a corresponding item appearing in or reflected in the department's resource accounts.'.--[Mr. Timms.]
Amendment made: No. 20, in page 4, line 24, at end insert--
'() The Comptroller and Auditor General shall carry out his examination of accounts under subsection (3)(b) with a view to satisfying himself--
(a) that money provided by Parliament has been expended for the purposes intended by Parliament,
(b) that resources authorised by Parliament to be used have been used for the purposes in relation to which the use was authorised, and
(c) that the department's financial transactions are in accordance with any relevant authority.'.--[Mr. Timms.]
Amendment made: No. 21, in page 4, leave out lines 32 to 38 and insert--
'(1) For the purposes of an examination by the Comptroller and Auditor General of a government department's accounts--
(a) he shall have a right of access at all reasonable times to any of the documents relating to the department's accounts, and
(b) a person who holds or has control of any of those documents shall give the Comptroller and Auditor General any assistance, information or explanation which he requires in relation to any of those documents.
(2) Subsection (1) applies only in relation to documents which are held or controlled--
(a) by a government department, or
(b) in pursuance of arrangements made by a government department for the compiling or handling of any of its financial records.'.--[Mr. Timms.]
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