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Dr. Julian Lewis (New Forest, East): Can my hon. Friend conceive of a way in which the information could be provided to the Treasury as set out in the subsections that the amendments would delete, but could not immediately be copied--in whatever form the Treasury stipulated--and handed over for public purposes to the House of Commons? How can the Government make such a distinction? It is hard to conceive of a way in which the existing clause could not be adapted to fit the amendments.

Mr. Letwin: While I entirely agree with the gist of what my hon. Friend says, I suppose that the idea is that, dulled by late nights and the insensibility of poor memory, we shall have forgotten by the time these things are being done that they are being done and will not ask for the information in parliamentary questions; or, if we ask, we shall be told, according to the Financial Secretary's arguments, that it is a bit expensive to produce, so we shall never get it.

What we are facing, therefore, is a Treasury that would like to be well informed about all of the Government's activities, but would like to make sure that we are not. That is not a satisfactory position. It is not even a defensible one. I am astonished that the Financial Secretary has sought to defend it. I had genuinely thought that we were dealing here with a drafting omission. I beg the Financial Secretary to look at this again, and ask himself whether as a matter of fact publishing the information is not in this case the absolutely evident requirement under any rational interpretation of the purposes of the Bill.

Mr. Timms: The hon. Gentleman asked me what amendment No. 22 meant. The key is that clause 9(1) refers to

a group of bodies . . . which appears to the Treasury . . . to exercise functions of a public nature.

The point about appearing to the Treasury to exercise functions of a public nature is already in the Bill. What the amendment does is to extend that to include the words:

information referring wholly or partly to activities which.

What that allows us to do--which the hon. Gentleman would wish as much as I do, I think--is to include things like the social fund and the national insurance fund, which are not bodies--the existing term used in the clause--but which are covered by

information referring wholly or partly to activities which

are of a public nature. That is the extension that the amendment makes. I am not surprised that it is not immediately self-evident.

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I assure the hon. Gentleman that nobody on the Government Benches is dulled. He said a few moments ago that we might be dulled, but that is certainly not the case.

Mr. Letwin: The hon. Gentleman's exegesis of amendment No. 22 is very helpful. Could he just add whether it would also enable the Treasury to include things like trading funds within the scope of the Bill?

Mr. Timms: I think that some trading funds would already be included under the existing wording.

Amendments Nos. 6 and 7 are to clause 10, whose aim is to allow us to get designated bodies to prepare and have audited consolidation packs--in the same way as subsidiaries of a commercial group prepare them. Those packs facilitate the consolidation process by gathering together accounts information in a standardised format.

Amendment No. 6, in respect of the consolidation pack for the whole year, would impose an additional requirement on bodies within the scope of whole of Government accounts to publish information that would essentially duplicate the contents of the annual accounts that they already have to publish. It would add an additional and unnecessary requirement that people do again something that they already do.

The two amendments together would also undermine the proposed consolidation process by removing the Treasury's rights to require the electronic submission of data and to set a deadline for those data to be submitted. Clearly, we want as much of the process as possible to be electronic. The amendments would damage the ability to achieve that.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause 10

Obtaining information

Amendments made: No. 23, in page 5, line 11, after "body" insert--
'which falls within section 9(1)'.
No. 24, in page 5, line 28, at end insert--
'() A designated body shall comply with any direction of the Treasury as to the person or kind of person to be given responsibility for ensuring compliance with subsections (2) and (3).'.--[Mr. Timms.]

Clause 11

Scrutiny

Amendment made: No. 25, in page 6, line 19, after "10(2)(c)", insert "or (7)(c)".--[Mr. Timms.]

Clause 14

Summarised accounts

Mr. Timms: I beg to move amendment No. 26, in page 8, line 30, at end insert--

'() Before making an order under subsection (1) the Treasury shall consult the Comptroller and Auditor General.'.

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The amendment would require the Treasury to consult the CAG before making an order under clause 14, which allows the Treasury to disapply the requirement for particular bodies to be included in the NHS summarised accounts.

In Committee, the Chairman of the PAC asked us to consider making the requirements of the clause subject at least to consultation with the CAG. We entirely recognise the interest that the CAG would have in any proposal not to apply the requirements of summarised accounts to some NHS bodies, and we tabled the amendment to provide for consultation with him before any such order is made under clause 14. I hope that the House will welcome it.

Mr. Letwin: I am glad to say that the spirit of harmony has reasserted itself. I can see no objection to the amendment, which indeed constitutes a response to complaints made in Committee. I only hope that, following reflection, similar responses will be made to some of the other matters that we have raised.

Mr. David Davis: I thank the Minister for the amendment, which meets the requirement that I stipulated in Committee, and is entirely satisfactory.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause 16

Expenditure and assistance

Amendments made: No. 27, in page 8, line 44, leave out "and".
No. 28, in page 9, leave out lines 1 to 13 and insert--
'(b) may incur expenditure for the purposes of investing in the body (whether by acquiring assets, securities or rights or otherwise), and
(c) may provide loans and guarantees and make other kinds of financial provision to or in respect of the body.
(2) The powers under subsection (1)(b) and (c)--
(a) may not be exercised in respect of more than one body, and
(b) may be exercised only in connection with public-private partnership business carried on or to be carried on by the body.'.--[Mr. Timms.]

Clause 17

Section 16: interpretation

Amendments made: No. 29, in page 9, line 34, leave out "public money or".
No. 30, in page 9, line 34, leave out "(except in section 16(3)(b))".
No. 31, in page 9, line 35, leave out "public money or".--[Mr. Timms.]

Clause 22

Examinations by Comptroller and Auditor General

Amendments made: No. 32, in page 10, line 38, leave out "This section has" and insert--
'Subsections (2) and (3) have'.
No. 33, in page 10, line 42, at end insert--

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'(3) An examination of accounts carried out by the Comptroller and Auditor General shall be carried out on behalf of the House of Commons.
(4) Subsection (5) applies where the Comptroller and Auditor General examines and certifies accounts of a body by virtue of an enactment or agreement.
(5) Section 8(1) shall apply for the purposes of the examination of the body's accounts as it applies for the purposes of the examination of a department's accounts.
(6) The Treasury may by order provide for the accounts of a body to be audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General.
(7) An order under subsection (6)--
(a) may be made in relation to a body only if it appears to the Treasury that the body exercises functions of a public nature or is entirely or substantially funded from public money,
(b) may make such supplementary or consequential provision (including provision amending an enactment) as the Treasury think expedient,
(c) shall not be made unless the Treasury have consulted the Comptroller and Auditor General, and
(d) shall not be made unless a draft of the order has been laid before, and approved by resolution of, each House of Parliament.'.--[Mr. Timms.]

Clause 27

Commencement

Amendment made: No. 34, in page 11, line 27, leave out "(4)" and insert "(8)".--[Mr. Timms.]

Schedule 1

Minor and Consequential Amendments

Amendment made: No. 35, in page 15, line 18, at end insert--

'Food Standards Act 1999 (c. 28)
.--(1) Schedule 4 to the Food Standards Act 1999 (Food Standards Agency: accounts) shall be amended as follows.
(2) In paragraph 2(1)--
(a) for "appropriation accounts" substitute "resource accounts", and
(b) for "the Exchequer and Audit Departments Act 1866" substitute "the Government Resources and Accounts Act 2000".
(3) In paragraph 5--
(a) in sub-paragraph (1) (and in the heading to the paragraph) for "section 5 of the Exchequer and Audit Departments Act 1921" substitute "section 7 of the Government Resources and Accounts Act 2000", and
(b) in sub-paragraph (3) for "section 5" substitute "section 7".'.--[Mr. Timms.]
Bill, as amended, to be reported.
Order for Third Reading read.

6.27 am

The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Andrew Smith): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

Let me begin by saying a special thank you to the staff of the House who have been kept here all night. We are very grateful for their service. I also thank parliamentary counsel and all the officials who have worked on the Bill, especially those who have been condemned to sit through some pretty tedious proceedings. I thank all who served

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on the Standing Committee--and, indeed, the Public Accounts Committee--for their careful consideration, and I say a particular thank you to my hon. Friends the Financial Secretary and the Economic Secretary for their heroic work on this important Bill.

Lest we forget--as we may have during a good deal of the debate--the Bill concerns resource accounting. It revolutionises the basis on which Government keep their accounts: the move to an accruals basis is a great step forward. However, most of our deliberations today, and indeed in Committee, have concerned the question of audit. I think that I should briefly run through all the areas in which we have made changes in response to points made in Committee, and by the PAC.

The access clause in the Bill will give the National Audit Office access as of right. We are requiring resource accounts to show a true and fair view. We are requiring a note on the accounts showing the differences between amounts in estimates and outturn. We have introduced a financial limit on Partnerships UK. We have made it clear that the Comptroller and Auditor General does his audits on behalf of the House of Commons. We are giving the CAG a statutory right of access when he is auditing non-departmental public bodies, and providing the means for audit by the CAG to be extended to non-departmental but public bodies which he is currently barred by statute from auditing. Those are not small changes. They are a genuine effort to deal with the concerns that have been expressed in the House and by the PAC in particular.

What is more, as my hon. Friends have pointed out, I have proposed the review of central Government audit procedures, with the terms of reference set out in my parliamentary answer yesterday. That offers a greater opportunity for Government and Parliament to work together to ensure that we improve on the hotch-potch of arrangements that the Government inherited from the previous Administration.

I cannot resist saying that it was very rich of Conservative Members to spend so much time on the Bill; much of it was total time wasting. During the bit that was not time wasting, they attacked procedures that were put in place by their Government. Since we came to office, we have been following procedures that honour the accountability that we all owe the House. It comes ill from Conservative Members to plead in aid integrity, accountability and scrutiny by the House, and, by their behaviour, subvert the House's principles and reputation.

At any rate, we have reached Third Reading. As I say, I have proposed the review, which offers a collaborative way of moving forward on the outstanding issues of concern that have been aired here and in the PAC.

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