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The Solicitor-General: As I said earlier, we will act in accordance with our legal obligations. As a result of the review that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has initiated, those obligations may change. However, we will act in accordance with the rule of law.
Points of Order
2.55 pm
Mr. Eric Forth (Bromley and Chislehurst): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. You, Madam Speaker and the other occupants of the Chair are the guardians of the rights of Back-Bench and, where appropriate, Opposition Members. You will know that business questions is one of the most valuable occasions available to Back-Bench Members during the parliamentary week. Today, Madam Speaker saw fit--I in no way challenge her decision--to truncate business questions when, in my perception, Government Members had all had an opportunity to ask their questions, but a number of Opposition Members were still waiting to be called.
Will you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and Madam Speaker consider whether an informal rule exists? When you have called all the Government Members does that automatically eliminate the remaining Opposition Members from being called? If that were the case--I hope that it is not--it would have serious implications. Like me, you will recall that business questions used to run until all Members had been accommodated. I hope that the matter will be considered seriously--I am sure that it will be--because I worry about the implications if Opposition Members were to be denied the opportunity to ask a business question because too few Government Members had bothered to be here.
Mr. Owen Paterson (North Shropshire):
Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am a regular attender at business questions. It is one of the rare opportunities in the week when a humble Back Bencher such as myself can bring important matters to the Government's attention.
I would have brought up the case of the dairy industry because I went to an emergency meeting of farmers in North Shropshire last week. Following the lamentable ignorance shown by the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry when he answered my question, I should have liked to have brought the issue to the attention of the Leader of the House and asked for a debate on it. Would it be possible to ask Madam Speaker always to allow all Back Benchers to be called in business questions?
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Lord):
Madam Speaker always deals as fairly as possible with such matters. I shall see that the points that have been raised are brought to her attention.
Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody (Crewe and Nantwich):
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Before I become totally paranoid, may I ask for your support and protection? For the second time today, the press in what I hope is a demonstration of frustration and not malice have taken to bombarding me from above with notebooks and pens. Will you encourage them to desist?
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
I am sure that the press will have noted the hon. Lady's comments. I am sure that she does not need my protection to deal with such matters. I will see that her point is brought to the attention of those responsible.
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.--[Mrs. McGuire.]
The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Paul Murphy):
At ten past 12 on 17 October 1944, when war was still raging, the first Welsh day debate, as we have come to call it, was held. It was opened by Lady Megan Lloyd George--then the Liberal Member for Anglesey but who later became the Labour Member for Carmarthen--and contributions were also made by the Member for Ebbw Vale, Aneurin Bevan, and my first predecessor as Secretary of State, Jim Griffiths. They argued that the debate was inadequate in the sense that devolution was necessary to address Welsh problems.
Indeed, that was just like 100 years ago--the Labour party is celebrating its centenary--when Keir Hardie told the people of Merthyr and Aberdare that we should have some form of home rule. Now we have it, and yesterday was the first St. David's day--and this is the first Welsh day debate--since devolution.
Nine months have passed since my predecessor's functions were handed to the National Assembly for Wales. There have been some painful moments, but it is a new, young, democratic institution, which the people of Wales voted for in their referendum.
There is undoubtedly a need, over the three or so years before the next elections are held for the National Assembly, for some stability to be recognisable in the Assembly. None of us would want to see a repeat performance of what occurred some weeks ago.
Mr. Llew Smith (Blaenau Gwent):
My right hon. Friend will be aware of the report from the National Audit Office and the Select Committee highlighting how Gwent tertiary college was just about destroyed by the previous principal and senior management. He will also be aware that a dispute is going on in the college because staff seeking a wage rise, not having received one for three years, went on strike yesterday afternoon. Would my right hon. Friend care to comment on a letter sent by the present chief executive, of which I have a copy passed to me today by the Gwent Gazette, the local newspaper, in which the chief executive encourages young kids to cross the picket line to break the strike? That has serious cost implications, and we now have a situation in which the chief executive--
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Lord):
Order. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not continue his intervention, which is already very long. We have only just started the debate, in which many hon. Members want to catch my eye. It will set a very bad precedent for the debate if there are interventions of this length. Therefore, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will come very briefly to his point.
Mr. Smith:
Will my right hon. Friend dissociate himself from the sentiments in the letter, in which the chief executive is pitting students against staff to try to break a strike?
Mr. Murphy:
I am intrigued as to how that intervention came on the issue of the need for stability in
I return to the National Assembly. I believe that, in the few months since it has been up and running, it has achieved many things for Wales. At this stage it is right for me to pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Mr. Michael), who unquestionably set the Assembly going on the right lines. He established it in its first months, and we should all wish him well, as indeed we should wish the new First Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. Morgan), well, too.
Dr. Julian Lewis (New Forest, East):
I do not wish to dissent from wishing the hon. Gentleman well, but does not the Secretary of State agree that it has not set a good precedent that after the last two incumbents as Secretary of State for Wales went to the Assembly they proceeded never to vote, in one case, or on only one occasion, in the fulfilment of their parliamentary responsibilities in this House? Does he also agree that this sort of dual mandate is proving deeply unsatisfactory?
Mr. Murphy:
The hon. Gentleman knows as well as I do that when there is a general election for this House there will no longer be such mandates, so far as my party is concerned. It is clear that the holder of the responsible job of First Secretary has an extremely difficult and onerous position in establishing the National Assembly.
In the months of its existence the Assembly has done many good things. It has, for example, established special relations with business in Wales, with the voluntary sector and with local government, in a way that has never been tried or tested elsewhere in this country. It has set in train a radical reform of post-16 education and training in Wales; it has launched "A Better Wales", which sets out a radical transformation of the quality of life of Welsh people over the next decade; it has brought a new approach to dealing with social exclusion; and for the first time ever the £8,000 million Welsh budget is being decided in Wales by those elected in Wales to deal with the priorities. In such a short time it has achieved much.
Mr. Allan Rogers (Rhondda):
Is my right hon. Friend suggesting that the disbursal of moneys in Wales before the establishment of the Welsh Assembly was not done by elected Members?
Mr. Murphy:
Of course not. It was done by my predecessors and the two Under-Secretaries who accompanied them. As I can be today, previous Secretaries of State could be questioned by Members of this House, by the Select Committee, the Grand Committee and so on. What I am saying is that there is now a much stronger, more transparent way of looking at the budget, because there are now 60 elected Assembly Members in Wales, and they are in a position to examine that budget. We are, too, of course, in the sense of looking at the overall budget. Not long ago I appeared before my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd, South (Mr. Jones) and his colleagues on the Select Committee on Welsh
2.58 pm
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