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Mr. Dafydd Wigley (Caernarfon): The Secretary of State has referred to the way in which money is distributed. A central question is the total money available. The right hon. Gentleman will be aware of the report from Brussels--the response to the single programming document on objective 1 status for Wales--which said:
- The Commission needs to be satisfied that future financial resources will be available to provide public spending for the whole programme and cannot be satisfied that this will simply be reviewed in the forthcoming comprehensive spending review. A commitment to this effect needs to be included in the final SPD.
Mr. Murphy: The document was incorrect in its references to the forthcoming comprehensive spending review. We are in the middle of it; it started at the beginning of the year and concludes in July.
As a Member of the National Assembly as well as of this House, the right hon. Gentleman knows that the document--the plan--is an agreement between the European Union and the National Assembly. My hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, West indicated to the Assembly this week that in no way did that comment mean that the Commission would block the plan when it came up for further consideration at the end of March. I cannot give an assurance of the type that the right hon. Gentleman seeks, because we are still in the process of that spending review. We have gone over these matters many times. Obviously, it is a hugely significant issue for Wales. I am given to understand that the progress of the plan will not be hindered by the comments to which the right hon. Gentleman has just referred.
Mr. Alan W. Williams (East Carmarthen and Dinefwr):
I should like to quote to my right hon. Friend the following words of my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. Morgan):
Mr. Murphy:
My hon. Friend reinforces the point that I have just made.
I return to our roles as Members of Parliament and Ministers here. I am the thirteenth Secretary of State for Wales. The job has changed. It is to protect the settlement; to symbolise the place of Wales in the United Kingdom; and to represent Wales in the Cabinet and the Cabinet in Wales. It is also, with Members of this House and the other place, to steer through primary legislation for Wales. There are at least half a dozen Bills going through the House--the Local Government Bill, the Learning and
Skills Bill and others--in which there are very large Welsh sections. Some 35 per cent. of the Learning and Skills Bill relates to matters specifically affecting Wales.
Mr. Gareth R. Thomas (Harrow, West):
As my right hon. Friend knows, I represent a London seat, but it contains some 2,500 people of Welsh descent, a delightful Welsh chapel and the very active Harrow Welsh society. It is also close to the Welsh school in Willesden, which, as my right hon. Friend will also know, is experiencing financial problems.
As my right hon. Friend stalks the corridors of Whitehall and Westminster, will he be able to ensure that the educational needs of Welsh people living outside Wales will be given some consideration?
Mr. Murphy:
It is difficult enough to represent Wales in the House of Commons; representing the Welsh diaspora as well is even more difficult. I accept, however, that the Welsh school plays a significant part in the lives of Welsh men and women--and, obviously, children--in London, and I will make appropriate representations to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Employment.
Our roles as Members of Parliament have changed. I mentioned the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs, which must now find a new role and, in my view, is dealing with that very well. The Welsh Grand Committee still meets, and provides a forum for those who represent Welsh constituencies. Welsh Question Time has changed as well. I should, however, mention something else, because it has been mentioned to me by Members on both sides of the House. Those of us who represent Welsh constituencies are not London Members; we are Welsh Members who happen to be in the United Kingdom Parliament, which happens to be in London. That should be put on record because, as we enter a new constitutional age, nomenclature is important.
As for our constituency work, I have no evidence--I am sure that the same applies to my colleagues--that our postbags have diminished. Moreover, our role here as representatives of the people of Wales has not diminished either. Nevertheless, I feel that we should, along with our colleagues in the Assembly, develop a new role enabling us to work together for the benefit of our communities.
The settlement--the contract with the Welsh people that devolution constitutes--is concerned with, above all, the place of the Assembly in the United Kingdom as well as its place in Wales. The relationship between the Assembly and the House of Commons is hugely significant. We are all in this game--this business of governance--to improve the quality of life of Welsh men, women and children, and we can do that together.
I think that the ultimate test of any politician, wherever that politician is a Member, is whether at the end of the term of office--here, or in the Assembly--the people he or she represents enjoy a better quality of life than when that term of office began. I also think that Members of Parliament and Members of the Assembly can bring that about together.
During that first Welsh day debate in 1944, Aneurin Bevan spoke of the problems confronting the people of Wales. We would do well to heed his advice today as we
take stock of the progress that we have made in the past nine months towards democratic devolution--towards what I call "partnership with a difference". Bevan said:
As ever, Bevan started from where his people were--from their lives, concerns and aspirations. He put it all in a universal context, recognising that the task of the politician is to be the tribune and the advocate of the people in terms of their hopes and aspirations for a better life. That, in my view, is what politics is all about. If we fail the people, the democratic institutions that we cherish, and have only just established, will fail as well.
There are a number of contexts in which we can tackle together the problems that afflict the people of Wales. That is why the Chancellor of the Exchequer set up three task forces representing the United Kingdom Government and the Governments of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, to deal with the knowledge economy that is so vital to the future of Wales, with child poverty and with pensioner poverty. The other important reason that the Assembly is joining this Parliament in considering stability in the years ahead is the importance of delivering the services that it is charged to provide, just as we are in the United Kingdom Government.
Mr. Paul Flynn (Newport, West):
My right hon. Friend mentioned pensioner poverty. As he knows, one of the Government's main promises and priorities was to help the poorest pensioners. Is he aware that no action has been taken to discover the identity of the 700,000 poorest pensioners in the United Kingdom--many of them in Wales--whose income is below the minimum income guarantee level? Action was promised in April 1999 and again last month, but, as I say, none has been taken. Will my right hon. Friend use his good offices to ensure that a scheme to alert the poorest pensioners to the availability of benefits will be initiated in the near future?
Mr. Murphy:
I can give my hon. Friend that assurance. It is obviously important to identify as many people as possible who can qualify for the benefits that the Government have given.
The Commission has confirmed that it does not intend to block the single programming document until the spending review is completed later in the summer.
Therefore, the Commission is quite willing to wait until July.
What is the problem that I, and my colleagues, were up against between the two wars? We had in Wales, in the Welsh valleys in particular, a problem arising out of unemployment in the basic industries. I spent most of my adult life in the shadow of unemployment, because the basic industries happened to be situated largely in South Wales. Our problem was to try to get enough political leverage to secure attention for our difficulties.--[Official Report, 17 October 1944; Vol. 403, c. 2313.]
The words
enough political leverage to secure attention
are another way of saying that Wales's problems, then and now, need that "partnership with a difference" between our Assembly and our Parliament and Government.
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