| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
Mr. Evans: Is the Liberal Democrats' policy to push to give primary legislative powers to the Welsh Assembly without a referendum, and to give it tax-raising powers without a referendum?
Mr. Livsey: I was talking about legislation, not taxation. Nor will I abandon my party's adherence to a very important 100-year-old policy of granting primary legislative powers to a Welsh Parliament.
Mr. Rogers: That was a good Liberal Democrat answer.
Mr. Livsey: Yes, it was. I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman.
This week's announcement that the Presiding Officer will, for example, have his own independent legal officer demonstrates another weakness in the 1998 Act. We failed to include in the Act amendments tabled by Liberal Democrats Members that would have enabled the Assembly to have three classes of civil servant. I remind the House that we advocated providing for Executive departmental civil servants; independent civil servants, who would have been designated to work with Members and political parties; and officers of the Assembly, similar to those at the House of Commons, who could independently proffer advice to Assembly Members.
I believe that three classes of civil servant would solve many of the Assembly's problems. I am also quite certain that such reform, in the medium to long term, will make the National Assembly a far more effective democratically accountable body.
The vexed question of match funding for objective 1 and objective 2 initiatives, which was the cause of such a hiatus in the Assembly a few weeks ago, would have been eased to some extent had the Assembly had tax-varying powers. That is probably the most contentious of the proposals that we put forward during the passage of the Government of Wales Bill, but it would have epitomised democratic power with responsibility, which the hon. Member for Rhondda mentioned just now.
Mr. Robert Walter (North Dorset):
Will the hon. Gentleman clarify what he has just said about tax-varying
Mr. Livsey:
I did not necessarily say that, because that is an important matter. I refer the hon. Gentleman to the Conservative peer, Lord Roberts of Conwy, who has advocated giving the Assembly tax-varying powers and said that it could lower taxes and Wales could become a tax haven.
Mr. Evans:
We need clarification on this simple point. Is it Liberal Democrat policy to give the Welsh Assembly tax-varying powers without a referendum? Yes or no?
Mr. Livsey:
Yes, of course it is. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman can read our manifesto, which has said that in the past. I do not know why he is trying to persuade me to abandon a policy that, as the hon. Member for Rhondda has said, is entirely logical.
Mr. Ruane:
Does the hon. Gentleman think that a proposal to give the National Assembly for Wales tax-raising or tax-varying powers would receive the backing of the people of Wales, with or without a referendum?
Mr. Livsey:
We would seek to persuade the people of Wales. The Scottish Parliament has tax-varying powers with a 3p limit. There are various ways of achieving tax-varying powers without going the whole hog, as some have suggested that we would like to do.
I regret that such a hard-working and honest Member of Parliament and of the Assembly as the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth should have had such a rough ride in the Assembly, but--[Hon. Members: "Look behind you."] I am sure that you agree that people should not interrupt half way through a sentence, Mr. Deputy Speaker. There is an element of truth in the description that he was Whitehall's representative in Wales rather than Wales' representative in Whitehall. That perception, together with the vexed question of objective 1 match funding and the Treasury's inability to come up with the necessary transparent evidence of such funding, unfortunately left the Liberal Democrats with no alternative but to vote in the way that they did on the confidence motion in Cardiff.
To paraphrase George Orwell, all votes are equal, but some votes are more equal than others. I welcome the arrival of the hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. Morgan) as the new First Secretary of the National Assembly for Wales. In the end, democracy has won in Wales. Like the Liberal Democrats, the new leader adheres to the concept of one member, one vote--or OMOV, as he fondly describes it. There is something satisfying in the fact that in Wales--a country of fair-minded people with strong democratic principles--people of all political perspectives were able to see justice finally done. The hon. Member for Cardiff, West has clearly said that other systems of election not based on one member, one vote will not be exercised again in Wales. I welcome that. It is real progress and the Liberal Democrats wish the new First Secretary well in his endeavours to obtain for Wales a fair settlement of United Kingdom resources with which to tackle the many problems that I have described in my speech.
Sir Raymond Powell (Ogmore):
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Mr. Livsey). However, I challenge him on what sort of democracy has won in Wales in the past few weeks. What happened was not democratic. He referred to a resolution that was tabled in the National Assembly for Wales. There is no doubt that the resolution was provoked by the Welsh nationalists for the purpose of disquieting most of the Members of the Assembly.
If we analyse the vote, we find that the result was determined by the unelected Members of the Assembly. Nineteen of those 20 unelected Assembly Members belong to the Opposition parties. They all participated in the debate and voted. I found the attitude of the Opposition parties in the debate disgusting.
Sir Raymond Powell:
Let me finish this point first. Unless the facts go on the record, I doubt that the House will ever know what really happened. The Secretary of State handed in his resignation--
Mr. Paul Murphy:
No, I did not.
Sir Raymond Powell:
I am sorry; it was the First Secretary. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has only recently taken up the post--no wonder I forgot. We shall have a long time to remember him afterwards.
The First Secretary gave what I am given to understand was a brilliant speech and handed his resignation to the Presiding Officer. I am sure that Madam Speaker or her Deputy Speakers would not allow a vote to take place on a person who had already handed in their resignation. It was disgusting and humiliating for the person involved and those who participated. The vote should never have been called. The fact that it was called was clear evidence of the political persuasion of the Presiding Officer. Anyone who watches a re-run of the proceedings will know that what I am saying is true. Such procedures would not be tolerated in the House, but we would never have allowed the situation to arise. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State should negotiate with Madam Speaker, the Deputy Speakers and the Presiding Officer of the Welsh Assembly so that they can at least ensure that it never happens again. They should also look at the procedure for appointing and dismissing a Presiding Officer.
The hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans) took about 15 minutes of my time. If we have a debate on Welsh affairs in future, we may as well have it in Westminster Hall because sufficient time is not available
in this Chamber. Perhaps arrangements could be made for a full day's debate on Welsh affairs before the end of this millennium.
I ask my right hon. Friend to consider the suggestion--not necessarily made by the Western Mail, because it always gets things wrong--for a public holiday on St. David's day. I do not want the Welsh nationalists to be able to say, "That was our campaign--we initiated it" because I made that suggestion on the Floor of the House in 1983 and I do not know whether some of them were here at that time.
Listening to my right hon. Friend's speech, I reflected on the two years and nine months that the Government have been in office and realised that he could have said a lot more. He might have done if he had taken twice the time used by the hon. Member for Ribble Valley. He could have recited chapter and verse in respect of all that the Government have delivered since 1 May 1997, especially for Wales. I am not looking for a position on the Front Bench but just stating facts.
Perhaps my right hon. Friend will prepare a detailed statement for right hon. and hon. Members in all parts of the House. Such a statement was published by the Department of Social Security, dated December 1999. It contains key messages on welfare reform running to 15 paragraphs; fairness through reform of the Child Support Agency, 15 paragraphs; fairness through reform of pensions, 20 paragraphs; and fairness through reform of rights and responsibilities. We could publish another three or four pamphlets on the new deal. I have great praise for the efforts made by my hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr. Hain) to introduce the new deal system for us.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |