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Mr. Flynn: Before the hon. Gentleman gets into his political rant, will he answer a serious question? Is he happy that the Labour Government have delivered on proportional representation by ensuring that in the National Assembly elections, the proportion of Conservative candidates elected was roughly equal to the number of votes that the Conservatives had in Wales, or was he happy with the 1997 general election result, when 20 per cent. of the population of Wales voted Conservative, but the party did not have a single one of the 40 Welsh Members of Parliament?

Mr. Walter: I do not want to get drawn into a debate about the merits of proportional representation. All I will say is that if one is looking for a declaration of popular support, the Conservative candidate in Ceredigion did somewhat better than the Labour candidate.

Labour has also failed to ensure that Wales receives its funding from the European Union. The Prime Minister said:

We do not intend to let the people of Wales down.--[Official Report, 20 October 1999; Vol. 336, c. 439.]

Yet now Labour is refusing to give a commitment to secure the extra funding that Wales needs.

Mr. Rogers: The hon. Gentleman ought to be fair. I spent five years in the European Parliament, and the problem of additionality in member states supporting European funding existed some years ago, right through the period of the Tory Government. When local authorities in Wales submitted schemes, they always ran up against the problem that the Government would not support European funding to the extent that they desired.

Mr. Walter: Under previous Governments, the funding was provided. I shall come to the specifics of this case in a moment, but the Secretary of State and the Chancellor have made no commitment to provide that extra £1.2 billion.

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Labour is failing to deliver on agriculture in Wales, and is totally insensitive to the needs of the industry. It has already been mentioned that the net income of dairy and livestock farms in Wales is forecast to fall by 25 per cent. in the current financial year to an average of £4,500 per farm.

I shall deal briefly with local government spending. Under Labour, council tax bills in Wales are set for a massive rise. They will increase by more than 18 per cent. in Monmouthshire and by 14 per cent. in Swansea. Many of the increases are due to the fact that the Labour Administration in Cardiff is using the council tax reduction scheme to subsidise profligate councils.

The previous Government introduced the scheme as a temporary measure to deal with the problems of changing from a two-tier to a unitary system of local government. The scheme is now being used to cover the wasteful spending of four Labour and Plaid Cymru councils. Council tax payers in areas such as Monmouthshire will be forced to pay for the overspending of councils in Neath Port Talbot, Rhondda Cynon Taff, Merthyr Tydfil and Blaenau Gwent.

My hon. Friend the Member for Ribble Valley mentioned some of the figures. In Anglesey, council tax bills will rise by 16.5 per cent., in Powys by 13.8 per cent. and in Monmouthshire by 18.2 per cent.--an average rise across Wales of 10.5 per cent.

The Assembly is failing to deliver. According to a recent ICM poll, 88 per cent. of Welsh people feel that devolution has achieved little or nothing. Instead of delivering on the real issues for the people of Wales, the Assembly has concentrated on seeking higher allowances for Assembly Members and securing the new building for the Assembly.

The First Secretary recently announced that the total cost of the new building would be £22.8 million, but in reality it is likely to be at least £26 million and possibly nearer £30 million. The people in Wales do not want to see so much money being spent on a new Assembly building. They would prefer their money to be spent on real priorities, such as education. The hon. Member for Rhondda (Mr. Rogers) was delightfully off-message. He referred to education spending and the expenditure necessary to repair leaking school roofs and to provide new school lavatories, and he compared that with the spending on the Assembly building.

There is utter confusion about ensuring that Wales receives the funding promised by the Prime Minister and the European Union. On objective 1 funding, the Prime Minister said:

We do not intend to let the people of Wales down.--[Official Report, 20 October 1999; Vol. 336, c. 439.]

However, as was mentioned in the debate, the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs has criticised the Government's approach to objective 1, stating that

the Government's "trust us" approach is not enough. There is a real risk that the continued uncertainty is deterring people, particularly in the private sector, from investing in developing projects.

It is another case of Labour being all mouth and no delivery. The Prime Minister has promised the earth, but he will not make the commitment to give Wales the funding that it needs.

In appendix 8 to the Select Committee report, table 3.2 shows clearly that over the seven years of the programme, the total national contribution from public expenditure is

2 Mar 2000 : Column 651

£885 million, of which £152.8 million is supposed to come in 2000 and £132 million in 2001, yet the Secretary of State has told us on numerous occasions that he has secured no extra funding to date from the Treasury in respect of that contribution.

Furthermore, in a parliamentary answer to me, the Secretary of State stated that there would be no increase in the departmental expenditure limit of the Wales Office in the current financial year or the next financial year. Even if the extra money was available, it would have to be spent within the existing departmental expenditure limit. I was intrigued by an intervention by the right hon. Member for Caernarfon (Mr. Wigley), who had worked that out. He said that if there was no increase in the departmental expenditure limit, any money that the Treasury was willing to make available could be spent only at the expense of other programmes in Wales. The right hon. Gentleman did not receive the answer that he sought. I shall be interested to hear the answer in the Minister's winding-up speech.

The Labour party is also letting down the people of Wales on the health service. It is failing to deliver on its waiting list pledge in Wales, where out-patient figures continue to increase. In March 1997, 28,401 people were on a waiting list for more than three months for their first out-patient appointment. That figure almost trebled; it was 75,386 for the month ending on 31 January 2000--an increase of more than 165 per cent., which is well above the appalling 100 per cent. rise throughout the United Kingdom for the equivalent period.

In-patient waiting lists have increased in Wales from 66,609 in 1997 to 77,031 in January 2000, despite the Government's waiting list initiative. Overall, the number of people on all waiting lists has risen by more than 60,000 in Wales. The Labour party is failing the health service in Wales, as it is failing in every other area. Labour cannot be trusted in Wales. The Prime Minister's pledge not to let Wales down is empty and the House will realise that in the coming months.

6.47 pm

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. David Hanson): I welcome the first St. David's day debate since devolution and, indeed, the first of the millennium. I welcome the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr. Thomas) to his first St. David's day debate. He made a thoughtful contribution, and I look forward to seeing him return to his socialist roots and joining the Labour party.

The debate has emphasised the importance of set-piece Welsh debates, which examine the Government's role now and in the future. Today we had an opportunity to discuss the important issues that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State covered: delivery, partnership and stability. Hon. Members from all parties have talked about a range of issues that reflect those themes, sometimes from different perspectives. The comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Mr. Rogers) did not chime with party policy but we welcome different perspectives, and we shall reflect on them.

Mr. Rogers: I criticised not Labour party policies or achievements in Wales, but the structure in which the Labour party has to operate in government in Wales.

Mr. Hanson: I welcome my hon. Friend's comments because they add to the flavour of the debate and to today's

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valuable discussions. The comments that have been made from all parts of the House are the meat and drink of day-to-day discussions in the Wales Office, which has changed since our last debate, but has retained its significant impact on Welsh issues and the role of the House.

Hon. Members have raised issues that we tackle daily in Cabinet Committees in discussions that affect Wales and through our contacts with organisations, businesses, the voluntary sector, trade unions and others, and in Government correspondence with colleagues and Assembly Members. The anxieties that have been expressed today have reflected those discussions.

Twelve contributions were made to the debate and they covered a range of important issues. I shall try to deal with them all, but if I cannot, I shall write to hon. Members who contributed to the debate to give a flavour of our view on those matters.

All the issues are important, but I particularly want to mention rural affairs. The hon. Members for North Shropshire (Mr. Paterson), for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd), for Brecon and Radnorshire (Mr. Livsey) and for Ceredigion (Mr. Thomas) mentioned rural Wales. Delyn, my constituency, is rural, and Labour Members represent constituencies containing significant rural areas. We recognise that there has been a crisis over the past few years and that there are issues that need to be addressed. For example, the Government have given extra support through additional hill livestock compensatory allowance schemes in recent years and are considering a range of proposals such as rural rate relief to provide help. Measures such as the working families tax credit, the minimum wage and child benefit also have an impact on rural areas. I acknowledge that they are experiencing difficult times, but we are giving a great deal of support.

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