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Mr. Andrew Stunell (Hazel Grove): I speak as a sponsor of what is a good Bill. It will be popular with consumers and producers, and the hon. Member for Eddisbury (Mr. O'Brien) drew attention to the fact that it had received the specific support of and co-operation from the Consumers Association and the National Farmers Union. My constituency is not primarily an agricultural
one, but I have pig producers and farmers in it, and they have been desperately hard hit by the agricultural crisis affecting the whole country. I well understand that other hon. Members have much wider experience of the problems, but I wish to emphasise that we face a practical problem now and the Bill is not simply an academic exercise.
The Bill is popular without being populist and would have several desirable outcomes. I wish to comment on some of the incipient criticism of the Bill that it is in some way Europhobic. If my reading of the Bill had suggested that, I would not have been a sponsor of it. Although I hate to say so, perhaps I am to some extent an alibi for the hon. Member for Eddisbury, should he come under fire from some hon. Members on that point. I do not doubt that some people will support the Bill for Europhobic reasons, but that is nothing to do with me, guv.
The hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mr. McWalter) has had the clearest assurances--ones that I would also wish to hear--that it is the intention that if the Bill goes forward, endeavours will be made to make it Euro-compliant. There is no point spending time and passing legislation that is not. I would be just as disappointed if the Bill were to be kicked into touch because it was thought to be Europhobic as I would be if I thought that it was receiving support because it was Europhobic. We need to make it clear that the Bill is not about Europhobia, it is about protecting British production, industry and consumers, and ensuring that an element of informed choice is available to those who purchase from shops in this country.
Mr. Tyler:
I endorse the point that my hon. Friend has just made. Does not the fact that other member states have similar legislation give the lie to the suggestion that the basic premise for the Bill is Europhobic? Those other member states have greatly benefited their consumers and producers as a result.
Mr. Stunell:
That is true, and we have already heard about the provisions being made in Sweden and France and the retail method of tackling the issue in Italy. Perhaps some entrepreneurs may read Hansard and see an opening for such retail practice in this country. For every member state--and others, such as the Swiss--there is a serious issue in ensuring that consumers have the knowledge to make an informed choice about the food products on sale. The Bill goes a long way in the right direction to achieve that.
I am a keen supporter of what might be called the European project, which I hope will go forward further and faster. However, I do not believe that every rule and regulation currently in place is right. I am not afraid to say when things are wrong and need to be changed. It is clear that gaps and deficiencies exist in the regulations covering food retailing, standards and labelling. I am happy to support the Bill, as it will push forward the process of correcting those deficiencies.
The hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead made a valid point when he said that the Bill offers an opportunity to exert a little pressure on the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to be more proactive. The hon. Member for Eddisbury said that he wanted the
Government to take a lead in European negotiations on labelling. I hope that the Minister will assure the House that that is exactly what the Government are doing, and that they will use the Bill as leverage in those negotiations. I hope that they will tell their European counterparts, "We've got trouble at t'mill, and the lads aren't happy. There's a Bill going through Parliament and we need to press the case it makes." The Minister should not reject the reform proposed by the Bill, but embrace it and take it forward.
The Bill is not perfect. I am exploring the wording of a ten-minute rule Bill that I want to introduce on retail packaging, and I have discovered that the matter is not as easy as I suspected. The hon. Member for Eddisbury is to be congratulated: he has arrived here in a flash of light after the Eddisbury by-election and produced out of his back pocket a Bill that is good, even if it is not perfect.
The Bill is a worthwhile step in the right direction. I support it and am happy to sponsor it. It is certainly good enough to merit a Committee stage.
Mr. Bermingham:
The substance of the Bill can be found in clauses 2 and 3. Will the hon. Gentleman tell me how any court in the land would interpret clause 3(1)? Against which codes, practices or other measures will the qualitative standards of clause 3(2) be set? Clause 3 is a nightmare.
Mr. Stunell:
The hon. Gentleman seems to have made an eloquent plea for inclusion in the Committee that will consider the Bill. I should be more than happy to serve on the Committee with him, which would mean that we could debate the point in more detail.
Mrs. Janet Dean (Burton):
I am pleased to participate in this debate, as the many farmers in my constituency are very worried about the present state of agriculture. They, and the consumers in my area, are keen to ensure that good and fair labelling accurately sets out the country of origin of produce on sale in shops and supermarkets.
My only reservation about the Bill has been expressed by other hon. Members, and it has to do with its compatibility with EU law. The National Farmers Union wrote to me and emphasised that
I was reassured by the hon. Member for Eddisbury (Mr. O'Brien) that he was not trying to skirmish with the EU. I can understand that that might be the reason for a Bill such as this, as many Opposition Members seem to believe that this Government have invented the current crisis in the agriculture industry. We are picking up the pieces of many years of problems in the industry, and labelling is part of that. It comes from the problems of BSE and the fact that, thankfully, we have brilliant welfare standards. I have visited pig farms in my constituency where the people who work with the animals are delighted that conditions are now better.
The better welfare standards that this country enjoys, certainly for pigs, were extra to the European requirements. We implemented the regulations to a higher standard than was the case in other parts of Europe. That is sometimes misinterpreted to mean that other European countries are behind us. They are, but that is because we chose to implement the proposals as we did. I am pleased that we did, but unless we sell and market our produce here, showing that we produce the animals according to better standards, our farmers will be at a disadvantage against their European competitors.
The situation in agriculture is desperate, as Ministers are well aware. I welcomed the announcement at the beginning of February about tightening up the labelling guidelines. We all want to be able to go into a supermarket and know what we are buying and where it comes from. It is difficult to look at bacon on the shelves and know, without studying it--perhaps even getting the reading glasses out, for those of my age and older--where it was reared and processed.
The news this morning referred to the launch today of farmers markets in London, with the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food in attendance. That is an important initiative which has been adopted in my own constituency. It provides the opportunity to consumers to buy direct from farmers in this country and know where their food is coming from. Supermarkets are also being pressed to ensure that their labelling is correct.
My hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mr. McWalter) touched on my next point. If the Bill were enacted and we labelled our food in accordance with its provisions, could we insist that other countries labelled theirs similarly? As my hon. Friend said, it is not a case simply of Europe but of the rest of the world. Could we tell American producers to label their products in a certain way to sell them in the United Kingdom? Or would the Bill affect only food produced in this country? Is there any difference between what the Bill would do it if referred to labelling British produce only, the Swedish Farm Assured mark, the recent NFU kitemark initiative and the Meat and Livestock Commission Quality Standard Pork Mark? Would not the Bill simply duplicate what the NFU has already done?
Mr. Stephen O'Brien:
I wish to clarify the position. The Swedish Farm Assured mark specifically includes the method of production in the information. Traceability includes being able to check on the methods of production in a positive and factual sense. That is the difference between the Swedish scheme and the NFU's current proposals for a kitemark.
the application of the legislation to the selling of food to catering establishments as opposed to supermarkets and other shops are technical issues which can be examined closely at a later stage in the parliamentary process.
I should be interested to hear from my hon. Friend the Minister whether that is a possibility.
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