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Mrs. Dean: I would have thought that the NFU's kitemarks would be designed to show that the product was British and had been produced according to the standards of this country. Therefore, it would differ little from the Swedish system. However, I am willing to receive further information on that.
Mr. Bermingham: I am listening carefully to my hon. Friend. From the wording of clause 2, I assume that any food sold in this country would have to bear a label showing the country of origin and the country of
manufacture. The NFU's point about kitemarks is a good one. We would know for certain whether food was English produced and manufactured.
Mrs. Dean: I fully support the NFU's proposals for kitemarking and I congratulate it on its initiative. I also welcome the Government's intervention in trying to ensure that we know the country of origin of the products that we buy in our supermarkets. I welcome any proposal that would help agriculture in this country and the farmers in my constituency.
Mr. Oliver Letwin (West Dorset): I do not want to speak for more than a few minutes because I have somewhat justifiably been accused of volubility. We have already debated the Bill for some time, and I am anxious to see it proceed.
I wish to make three brief points. The first is purely technical. I do not understand the arguments of the hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mr. McWalter)--which were made in good faith--that it would be a restriction of trade to impose transparency requirements where there is a non-differential. I do not believe that the jurisprudence would support that interpretation and my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for North-East Bedfordshire (Sir N. Lyell) does not believe it. However, the hon. Gentleman may be right and the answer can be teased out in Committee.
Mr. McWalter:
If one buys a packet of peanuts, the label often says that they are the product of several countries. Nobody is that fussed about which countries they come from. Such products might need a wholly different tracing system if they are to arrive on our shelves at all. That is just one example among many where the country of origin is not currently made known.
Mr. Letwin:
The hon. Gentleman neglects the fact that a particular measure--this is as true under the Codex Alimentarius as it is under the European provisions--that imposes a cost on producers is not a prima facie reason for classing it as a restriction of trade if the effect is non-differential between the imported and the home product. I do not understand why the hon. Gentleman takes the view that he does. Much more importantly, I do not understand why the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food takes it. It will have its reasons--they are probably not the hon. Gentleman's reasons--but I think that it has been misadvised. However, that point will come out in Committee and I hope that it will eventually be satisfactorily resolved.
My second technical point is about clause 2. I think that my hon. Friend the Member for Eddisbury (Mr. O'Brien) would probably agree that the rest of the Bill could be ditched if clause 2 could stand. It is the bit that matters. We want to ensure that people are not misled--I use that word advisedly--into buying things that they think are produced in Britain, but are not in any layman's definition
produced in this country. That aim is shared with the Ministry and with the Prime Minister, to judge by their comments, and I take what they say at face value.
If a restriction in trade is imposed as a result of the form in which the aim in clause 2 is achieved, many other modalities are feasible. One, for example, would be to reverse the burden of the clause, and make it a ban on people labelling food in a certain way--such as labelling it "British"--except in certain circumstances. That would avoid imposing on people who import goods the necessity of labelling them as having come from other places. There are thousands of such modalities, and no doubt much drafting work can be done, but I do not have the slightest doubt that clause 2 could be drafted to be entirely consistent with the Codex, with European regulations and indeed with the spirit of competition.
My third point is overwhelmingly the most important. Normally I try not to speak in terms that are pejorative or party political, beyond the genuine disputes between us about matters of policy. However, on an administrative basis, there is a disgrace. It is acknowledged by all parties that the Bill seeks, however hamfistedly and improperly--we shall find that out in Committee--to achieve an aim that the Agriculture Minister and the Prime Minister are on record as seeking to achieve.
It is not as if the Bill descended on the House two and a half hours ago without prior notice. It was published, and it was known that my hon. Friend the Member for Eddisbury would introduce it. The Ministry had ample opportunity to approach my hon. Friend, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for North-East Bedfordshire and other colleagues who are concerned with these matters and who have corresponded extensively about it, and talk through the Bill.
When I assisted in the promotion of the Referendums Bill as a private Member's measure, I received exactly that courtesy from the Home Office. It contacted my colleagues and I and we discussed the Bill. We did not reach an agreement, but at least there was a constructive effort between the Department and the Bill's promoter to turn it into the best possible Bill in the Department's view, within the limits of the promoter's willingness. It could then be debated in the House. My hon. Friend assures me that no such process occurred in this case. Why not? Why has not the Bill been redrafted in such a way that it comes as close as possible to being compliant? There is no excuse for that when the Agriculture Minister maintains that he cares about achieving that result.
I am sure that the Minister of State will tell me that she and her colleagues spent a great deal of time with bureaucrats in Brussels trying to improve things, and I have no doubt that that is true and that Ministers have genuinely been trying to get a European result. However, here we have a potential UK-based result that may take effect much sooner, and the Ministry has failed to take it seriously. That will be recognised as a disgrace by farmers in my constituency and those of other Members from all parties. It is an extraordinary and unreasonable way to conduct these affairs.
I am grateful that I am not the Agriculture Minister and so are farmers. I accept that he has a ghastly role. However, if I were the Minister, the first thing that I would have done when I heard that my hon. Friend was
promoting the Bill was to call him in for a chat and ask, "What are you trying to achieve, and can we achieve it?" This is an ideal opportunity; it is a legislative slot.
Mrs. Dean:
Does the hon. Gentleman know whether the hon. Member for Eddisbury (Mr. O'Brien) contacted the Ministry to seek advice before he drafted the Bill?
Mr. Letwin:
No, but no less a body than the National Farmers Union did so on my hon. Friend's behalf. It is pretty extraordinary that although the Minister knew that the Bill was being supported by organisations representing farmers interests, such as the NFU and the National Pig Association, as my hon. Friend showed, and by consumers interest groups, he did not try to iron out problems in the Bill as far as possible before this stage. I accept that the Standing Committee will do more.
The Government must want the result that the Bill would achieve, so I can only assume that they have become so terrified of any domestic action that they simply bring down the barriers on any discussion of domestic action. All activity must be focused on discussions in Brussels and other Governments in the Codex. That is an extraordinary error of judgment and a bad way to go about administration.
We have the opportunity to take domestic action that will have an immediate effect. Even if there is a scintilla of doubt about the Bill's compliance and it is challenged, that challenge will take many years. I am sure that the Minister of State knows that it would also take many years for her to persuade Governments in the EU and the Codex negotiations to change anything material. We are dealing with a contrast between fast action and slow action and the Ministry has decided to shred the fast action and go for the slow action. That is particularly bad because the Prime Minister and the Agriculture Minister should not be saying that they want urgent action when they are ensuring that there will be no urgent action.
Mr. Bermingham:
The hon. Gentleman heard me say earlier that clauses 2 and 3 are extremely badly drafted; they will not stand up in any court of law. Would he not be sensible to persuade his hon. Friend the Member for Eddisbury (Mr. O'Brien) to withdraw the Bill until someone can redraft those clauses?
Mr. Letwin:
The hon. Gentleman might well be right to say that clauses 2 and 3 are badly drafted. However, first, the Ministry had the opportunity to help to redraft them before the Bill was introduced; and secondly, the clauses can still be redrafted--the mistake can be cured in Committee. There is no reason to withdraw the Bill, whereas there is every reason to press ahead with it and find out whether something can be fashioned. It is up to MAFF to exert itself to get the Bill into as good a shape as possible. If, contrary to advice received from the House of Commons Library and relevant QCs, it turns out to be genuinely impossible to fashion legislation that will work, my hon. Friend the Member for Eddisbury and I will both accept that. However, that is not what has happened so far and the dereliction of duty that has occurred must quickly be redressed.
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