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Mr. Simon Hughes (Southwark, North and Bermondsey): Can the Secretary of State explain two matters relating to the central proposition in the Bill? First, why was the opportunity not taken to bring all the different authorities to intercept under a common procedure, so that, instead of having nine different sets of powers and sets of authorities, we could have just one? Secondly, why was the opportunity not taken to do what many democratic countries have done, and transfer the authority power from politicians or officials to a judicial authority in the first instance?
Mr. Straw: Let me say in answer to the first question that we are not dealing with matters that are exactly similar. There is a world of difference between the interception of someone's telephone or telecommunications system and, for example, the planting of a covert microphone, and the use of directed surveillance, which currently takes place all the time in an unregulated way. We need a regime or set of regimes for regulation that are appropriate to the sort of investigatory powers that are used. It would be absurd and impractical if, every time the police wished to use directed surveillance, they had to approach the Secretary of State or a judge for a warrant. Equally, it would be inappropriate--I do not think that it is the subject of any argument in the House--if warrants for telephone interceptions were
authorised at a lower level than they are now. Therefore, we have produced bespoke authorisation procedures that are fitted to the particular powers in the Bill.
Mr. John Bercow (Buckingham): Will the Secretary of State give way?
Mr. Straw: May I first answer the other point that was raised by the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes)? That was whether we should have taken the opportunity to remove from the Secretary of State the power to grant intercept warrants from all law-enforcement agencies. I assume that he is talking also about the powers to grant intrusive surveillance warrants in respect of the intelligence agencies. That has been a long-running debate. The powers that are exercised by the Secretary of State--certainly by me and, I believe, by every one of my predecessors--have been exercised very carefully.
Mr. Straw: The hon. Gentleman says "Of course" but it is an important point to get on the record. There may not be an "of course" about it, but it happens to be the case. In addition--I greatly welcome it--the interception commissioner is someone of high judicial standing. Currently, the position is held by Lord Nolan. As I and my colleagues have witnessed, he properly scrutinises the warrants and is available for advice where there is an issue about whether an intercept application does, or does not, come within the Interception of Communications Act. I devote much time to checking applications and warrants before I sign them, and asking questions if I am not satisfied with the applications, so the system is judicially supervised. The initial decision is made by a Secretary of State.
It is a matter of practice and convenience, but not in any sense a diminution of people's human rights, that this country has that system. It works. There has been no overwhelming argument, or no substantial argument to change it.
If one looks at the practice in other countries, it does not necessarily follow that, just because a judicial warrant is required, there is a greater safeguard for the individual. Indeed, I suggest that, in quite a number of other countries, the fact that a judicial warrant is required lessens the protection that is offered to people because the judicial warrant acts as a fig leaf for people's human rights, and not as a serious safeguard.
Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody (Crewe and Nantwich):
Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Mr. Straw:
As my hon. Friend knows from previous experience, I defer to her always and the hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Bercow) has deferred to her, too, indicating that she should intervene first.
Mrs. Dunwoody:
An unlikely story, but, as always, I am humbly aware of the kindness of my right hon. Friend in giving way. May I ask him about a point that concerns me? With the increasing use of computers as a means of alternative communications, is he certain not only that the present system will be extended in a way
Mr. Straw:
When it comes to humility, I always defer to my hon. Friend, as she knows only too well from the time we had almost adjoining rooms in Norman Shaw North. [Interruption.] Nothing happened apart from the fact that I used occasionally to clean her shoes. I reassure her that the Bill is partly designed to take account of the significant changes in technology in the 15 years since the 1985 Act was put on to the statute book. It is also designed to ensure that not only telephone calls, but--subject to proper procedures, when appropriate--data streams can be intercepted.
The fact is that--I shall deal with this in more detail when we discuss encryption--given the current vast scale of data traffic, which was unimagined even 15 years ago, the possibilities for law enforcement agencies to keep track of that traffic, except for very specific and targeted purposes, is very limited.
Mr. Bercow:
I am grateful to the Home Secretary for giving way. I am certainly not expecting him to clean my shoes, but I would appreciate an answer. How and when will he address the specific concerns about regulatory costs that have been expressed by the Alliance for Electronic Business? Given the fact, which he will not dispute, that the average British small business, employing fewer than 100 people, now faces an additional annual cost of £5,000 directly as a result of the Government's regulatory policies, to what figure will that increase rise as a result of the Bill?
Mr. Straw:
I shall deal later in my speech with the burden. If the hon. Gentleman is not satisfied with the answer that I give, I shall be delighted to give way to him again.
Mr. Dale Campbell-Savours (Workington):
May I perhaps rewind the tape, and deal with my right hon. Friend's earlier comment on the diligence and time that he himself personally devotes to checking to ensure that the warranting system works? I believe that that comment should be an assurance to many members of the public who write to Members of Parliament on the subject, but do not understand how he goes about his functions in that sphere.
Mr. Straw:
I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend. As a member of the Intelligence and Security Committee, he has reason to know more about the subject than most right. hon. and hon. Members possibly could. I think that all Secretaries of State have taken the responsibility very seriously indeed--and so they should, as should I. Interception is a patent invasion of individuals' privacy, and it should occur only when it is properly justified within the law and in all the circumstances.
Dr. Julian Lewis (New Forest, East):
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Straw:
If the hon. Gentleman will excuse me, I have to make some progress. If I have some time, I shall give way.
As I said to my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody), part of the Bill is designed to ensure that the intercept regime takes proper account of technological developments. One of those developments is that people change their telephones with a frequency that is sometimes astonishing, whereas, 15 years ago, it was a simple matter of one person, one line. We have sought to take account of that fact in the Bill.
The target of an intercept warrant will still have to be authorised by the Secretary of State. Some changes in telephone numbers--which, as I know to my cost, can happen at any time of the day or night--will be open to be authorised by senior officials at the relevant Departments. We are taking the opportunity to rationalise the time scales for renewal of warrants.
On the issue of burdens on industry, currently, public telecommunications operators are required to ensure that their network contains a basic intercept capability. The requirement is similar to that which applies in other countries. However, the requirement does not extend to other providers of publicly available communications services, such as internet service providers or international simple resale operators. The Bill proposes that a level playing field should apply across all types of industry, and it enshrines in statute the existing principle that service providers should maintain a reasonable intercept facility.
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