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7.11 pm
Mr. Michael Fabricant (Lichfield): I do not share all of the concerns expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset (Mr. Bruce), but I share some of them.
An interesting fact--just to set the scene--is that, in the United States, 44 per cent. of families have access to the internet, whereas, in the United Kingdom, only 18 per cent. of families are connected. However--with today's announcement that Alta Vista will provide free internet access for only £10 annually, which is a major improvement and very good news--the UK percentage is likely to grow.
At current levels of internet access in the United Kingdom, however, 100 million e-mails are being transmitted daily worldwide. That is a lot of e-mails to try to intercept. Nevertheless, the Bill aims rightly to deal with how best to intercept telecommunications between criminals. In 1993, only 1,005 telecommunications warrants were issued under the Interception of Communications Act 1985. In 1998, the number almost
doubled, to 1,913 such warrants, compared with only 118 letter warrants. The number of telecommunications warrants issued is most likely to be even higher than the number recorded, as information on warrants issued by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Northern Ireland Office was not published. We all understand why that information has not been published--it is far too sensitive.
It is interesting that the Bill is receiving its Second Reading today, when we have also had the "G3" auction of franchises for the third generation of mobile telephones, enabling mobile telephones to be used not only for voice communications, but for receiving very high-quality pictures and for internet access. If all goes well, that technology will be coming on stream in the next two or three years.
Currently, Virgin Net--to provide a little more information about the scale of developments--has over 100,000 passwords active in the United Kingdom. We are well aware of the type of problems that can arise from people using e-mails and the internet. Recently, Amazon and Yahoo were attacked, when, in one second, they received more e-mails than they would usually receive in a year. Although the Bill is aimed primarily at dealing with criminals who are concerned with making money from drugs or with terrorism, terrorism is inflicted also against the internet and the City. The attack on the World Trade Organisation meeting, in Seattle, and last summer's attack on the City were co-ordinated in e-mail messages between anarchists. I hope that the Bill will deal with that type of information.
Like my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset, I have various concerns about the Bill. I do not know why, for example, clause 25 does not cover tracking devices. The Minister is talking to the Whip, but I ask him to listen to my concerns--simply because I hope that he will deal with some of them in his reply.
Clause 25 states that tracking devices are not covered by the Bill. Why are they not covered? It is extraordinary that one should not be able to issue a warrant to track a vehicle being used by criminals, to determine where they are going and with whom they are meeting. It is an unusual provision to omit from the Bill.
Although clause 1 gives the power to demand access to encrypted data--an issue which has already been dealt with in detail by my right hon. and hon. Friends--it does not address the issue of how we are to deal with data that criminals themselves have encrypted. How will we be able to decrypt that information? I am quite sure that that type of information will be encrypted not by internet service providers, but by criminals themselves. They will use black boxes both to encode and to decode their e-mails.
How much information can be decrypted? Both the United Kingdom Government and the United States Government use Cray computers, but data exceeding 128 bits--or, nowadays, perhaps 256 bits--are difficult to decrypt. Although I appreciate that the Minister will not wish to deal with that matter in detail, I should like to be reassured that the issue will be addressed.
I am slightly concerned by clause 1(6), which deals with companies' right to snoop. As I said in an earlier intervention, I agree that it is right and proper for companies to record--providing that they announce it in advance; it is not right if they do not announce it in
advance--financial transactions made on the telephone, for example. I am sure that many hon. Members use telephone and internet banking services. It is quite right and proper that that type of conversation should be recorded.
It is wrong, however, for companies to monitor their employees' telephone conversations, to try to stop them using their telephones for personal conversations. That is going a little bit too far, and I ask the Minister to comment on that matter.
Clause 53 states that MI5, MI6, GCHQ, police, Customs and Excise and the Ministry of Defence will not be covered by the covert investigations commissioner. If those bodies will not be covered by the covert investigations commissioner, who will be? Who will be watching the watchers?
In replying to the Home Secretary's speech, my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Miss Widdecombe) said that the Department of Social Security should be allowed to instigate investigations to counter benefit fraud. I agree with her, but I go even further on the issue. As we all know, criminal organisations try also to defraud the Inland Revenue. If Customs and Excise--particularly customs officers--is able to initiate warrants, why cannot the Inland Revenue, in its own right, initiate warrants in its attempts to fight serious crime?
The Home Secretary told my right hon. Friend that, if a crime is serious enough, a warrant could be initiated by police. As we all know, however, there are often delays in obtaining a warrant. Nevertheless, sometimes, a warrant has to be issued swiftly or a tap has to be installed quickly. It all takes time. Therefore, although I echo my right hon. Friend's call to give the Department of Social Security the right to initiate a wire tap or a warrant to examine mail, the right should be extended also to the Inland Revenue.
The Home Secretary said that he realises that telephone numbers can be changed rapidly, and he said that the Bill seeks to allow telephone numbers subject to surveillance also to be changed quickly, essentially to mirror telephone number changes made by criminals. Why not simplify the system, and include in warrants the name of a location or an individual? If we were to do that and an individual were to change his or her telephone number, a fresh warrant would not have to be issued. Warrants issued to cover a mobile telephone or an internet account would definitely have to include a named individual.
I should like, finally, to pick up on a comment made by the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes), who said that, although ever more information is being collected on the individual, ever less information is being collected on who holds that information. That must strike a chord with many hon. Members. We hear of people applying for mortgages or hire purchase who find that their credit limit is nil because of a bad credit rating. It is difficult to track down why that has happened and who has given out the information, and there is a duty of care.
Mr. Oliver Heald (North-East Hertfordshire):
This has been a good debate, with thoughtful speeches from both sides. My right hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Miss Widdecombe) referred to three principles which will govern our view of the Bill. The first was that those who fight the crimes that go to the heart of our security as a nation, often in difficult circumstances, should have our support and should have the modern means that they need to fight crime effectively and to protect our country effectively.
Secondly, the liberty of the subject cannot be ignored when powers of this sort are being dealt with. We must ensure that, so far as possible, the balance between the interests of those who fight crime and the interests of the subject who must be free are properly weighed. Thirdly, we should consider always the interests of those who do business for Britain and those who rely upon our commitment as a nation to free trade. They should not be over-regulated.
We have heard some good examples of the background to the debate. The hon. Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Gapes) highlighted the problems caused by international drug traffickers and the way in which they use modern communications to ply their foul trade.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater (Mr. King)--speaking on behalf of the Intelligence and Security Committee--told us of how familiar the Committee is with the national security challenges that the country faces in terms of terrorism and organised crime. However, he made the point that if we are to protect this country, we must protect the human rights which make this country what it is. He mentioned the companies involved in e-commerce and the varied nature of e-commerce. That theme was taken up by many hon. Members. He explained that with hundreds of companies involved in electronic communications, the task of those who must intercept communications to defeat crime becomes that much more difficult.
Hon. Members set out the problems, and provided some details of how difficult it is to deal with modern communications while trying to retain some rights which crime fighters have had almost since time began. I think that the first warrant was given to intercept a postal communication in 1647, although I am ready to be corrected. I am sure that there was some interception of communications going on in the age of the caveman. This has always been a matter of importance to those fighting crime. In the modern age, achieving the simple aim of intercepting what one person has said to another has become difficult.
The hon. Member for Milton Keynes, North-East (Mr. White) referred to the difficulties of split-packet technology. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald mentioned, when messages are being sent via the internet, one whole message is not sent off to be received by someone at the other end. The message is broken down into tiny split packages and sent off by any number of routes. As has been pointed out, they can go via Australia and California before arriving. [Interruption.] It was my hon. Friend the Member for Lichfield (Mr. Fabricant) who pointed that out.
To try to intercept all of those tiny communications--a snowstorm of 100 million communications a day, all broken down into tiny particles--is not an easy task. Wills Stanford of the Federation of the Electronics Industry told me that although it may be technically feasible--no one is saying that it is not--no one has yet found a way of doing that. Will the Minister tell us whether such a method has been discovered? If so, fine. However, if something is that complicated, there are bound to be substantial costs involved.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater dismissed some of the huge figures suggested, such as hundreds of millions of pounds for each company. However, he made the point that the costs could be substantial. We are saying that it is all very well for the Government to take the power under clause 13 to make a reasonable contribution to the costs of industry. However, are the Government going to do it? On what basis will they do it? Will the Government pledge that it will be a sufficient contribution, so that no communications service provider is put out of business simply by the costs of providing the Government with the interception capability that they require for their purposes?
Technical issues were raised concerning clause 21 and communications data. The right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) said that communications data can be a wide range of items and can give a full picture of somebody's life style, going into matters which are private. That can be justified in some cases but, at the moment, the powers in the Bill seem broad. In Committee, this should be explored. Attempts should be made to ensure that such powers are used only in serious investigations.
The hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead (Mr. Cohen) said that he would not be satisfied if the fact that someone had not paid their car tax provoked such an investigation. One imagines that a reasonable Home Secretary would not wish to see matters such as MOTs, car tax and council tax arrears causing the obtaining of vast amounts of communications data, and the Home Secretary himself said that he would like to concentrate on the real villains. Having said that, the powers are there--the key to any Bill--and they seem to be wide enough to allow for that. In Committee, we will tackle that issue to ensure that the law meets the laudable intentions of the Home Secretary.
Many hon. Members referred to clauses 46 to 49, concerning the giving of a notice to obtain the code to encrypted information or providing a plain text, and the offence that is created. That was a key part of the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton (Mr. Taylor) who, as the Minister responsible, proposed a different system which he now accepts was flawed in many ways, but which was based on the idea of giving law enforcement agencies the powers that they need. My hon. Friend accepts that key escrow is not the correct approach, but he made the point that it is important, when considering the extent of the powers to issue a section 46 notice and the way in which keys are stored, not to impose key escrow on industry by the back door. The industry has spoken on the issue, and it is important that what is proposed meets the gravity of the situation without imposing mandatory key escrow.
There will be--as there is already--a role for voluntary safekeeping of codes and keys, and the Federation of Electronics Industries runs T-scheme, in which a key can be placed for safekeeping, albeit largely to ensure that it is not lost by the owner. It may become more common for companies and individuals voluntarily to secure their key in some way and I see no problem with that. However, the problem with the provisions at present is that the offence under clause 49 places the burden solidly on the individual to clear himself of wrongdoing, but the fear is--as expressed by several right hon. and hon. Members--that the real criminal would not mind too much being found guilty of failing to comply with a section 46 notice if the effect was to protect information that could be used to prosecute him and his partners in crime for serious offences.
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