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Mr. Heald: We shall come to issues such as clause 13 in Committee, but will it be possible for the Government to give us a clearer idea before then of the level of costs that are envisaged? That would enable us to debate the issues with a little more knowledge.
Mr. Clarke: I agree that the debate thus far has been characterised by a series of figures flying around in different directions on a basis that is not exactly scientific, although I do not want to impugn the motives of anybody providing them. However, I agree with the hon. Gentleman that it would be helpful to have the maximum possible information for the debate in Committee, and I shall try and ensure that it is available. A difficulty is that some of the figures are commercial-in-confidence for individual companies. That is one reason why we have not had a very open paper on the matter. I acknowledge that we need to conduct the debate in a more informed way, with as much information as possible.
Our general stance has been to deal with the issue on the basis of marginal costs rather than the average cost of any changes that arise. There is a lot of debate on that, but I can assure the hon. Gentleman that in Committee we will seek to provide as much information as we can about the costs involved.
We are discussing industry self-regulation in many of these areas. That would be far preferable to a regulated and bureaucratic system, for precisely the reasons that we gave earlier.
I now turn to the various issues regarding interception. I begin by reminding right hon. and hon. Members of the scope of the interception. Clause 5(3) states:
Mr. Simon Hughes:
Can the Minister confirm that there is no statutory definition of
Mr. Clarke:
I have been entertained in a number of environments by the flights of fancy that the hon. Gentleman is prepared to follow on some hypothetical trail. As was indicated in the debate, the phrase is used because it was used in previous legislation and is thought to be tightly enough defined for our purposes. I am happy to look at possible alternative wording, but I believe that the phrase in the Bill has stood the test of time, and we intend to stick with it. I do not intend to respond to the hon. Gentleman's hypothetical questions about what it might or might not cover in certain circumstances.
Mr. Fabricant:
The Minister may or may not be aware--I suspect that he may well be--that a near neighbour of ours, and certainly of the United States, does intelligence gathering to ensure the economic well-being of its industries and businesses. I hope that we would still be able to do the same and would not be constrained by the Bill.
Mr. Clarke:
As always, the hon. Gentleman illuminates the debate by his comments. However, I will say no more than I did to the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes).
Particular points were raised to which I want to respond. First, my hon. Friend the Member for Leyton and Wanstead (Mr. Cohen) referred to the number of warrants that have been signed by the Secretary of State. That is a perfectly fair
question. There are two factors here--the first was alluded to earlier by my right hon. Friend when he said that as the technology has advanced and the number of phones and phone numbers have increased, there has been an expansion in the number of warrants for each of those phones and in those circumstances. Secondly, the unfortunate truth is that the extent of international serious crime on drugs and other business has also been expanding over the relevant period, so the importance of interception as a weapon for law enforcement and security has become increasingly significant.
Mr. Cohen:
The massive change in recent years has been in the growth of mobile phones. Is that what the Secretary of State is indicating?
Mr. Clarke:
My hon. Friend has the point exactly. An individual may have not only a number of land-based telephones but mobile and other phones which he or she can change rapidly. The number of warrants increases for that reason alone.
A further point that was raised by the hon. Member for Lichfield (Mr. Fabricant), among others, concerned the other agencies that may be empowered to intercept communications. The arguments come from a variety of corners. Some say that the Department of Social Security should have the right to do so, some that the Inland Revenue should, and some that the provision is too widely drawn. Clause 6(1)(k) shows that the power is there, but I emphasise that we have no plans to use that power to extend the power to intercept beyond what is set out in the Bill. We have intentions on the other aspects of surveillance covered in the Bill, and I shall come to that shortly, but we have no plans to use that clause to widen the application of interception. I hope that that clarifies the situation.
My hon. Friend the Member for Leyton and Wanstead also asked whether communications could be intercepted for the purpose of gathering council tax or road tax. The answer to that is no, because, as I said earlier, the scope of clause 5 does not permit the gathering of council tax or road tax to be the purpose of these communications. They are not issues of national security, although some might argue that they are.
Mr. Heald:
The Department of Social Security deals with the largest area of crime by value in the country. The Benefits Agency's organised crime division deals with crimes involving huge amounts of money. Why does it have to go to the National Criminal Intelligence Service or some other law enforcement body to obtain an interception warrant?
Mr. Clarke:
All police services in the country have to go to NCIS as well. I repeat that clause 5(3)(b) states that a warrant is necessary
Mr. Heald:
When I was the Minister with responsibility for benefit fraud, I used to deal with this a lot.
Mr. Clarke:
Then the hon. Gentleman went up to being an Opposition Home Affairs spokesman.
Mr. Heald:
Well, there we are. It is true that there are successful combined operations with the police--the Home Secretary mentioned one. However, there are also operations conducted by the Benefits Agency organised fraud branch on its own which involve large amounts of money. Why can it not apply for an interception warrant?
Mr. Clarke:
The reason is as I have said. The Bill contains a series of different powers of surveillance and investigation, and I shall come in a moment to the type of investigation that might arise in other areas. However, interception is a significant intrusion into individuals' liberties and we consider that it should be used only by a narrow and tight range of agencies. That is what is set out in the Bill. The argument, for example, that the social services benefits fraud agency was investigating serious organised crime but not involving the police in any way and needed separate powers to do it does not stack up. They can carry out precisely the joint operations described by the hon. Gentleman, and that will continue.
Mr. Tom King:
Is not the very strong defence that the Minister is making of the need not to have any extension of these powers a powerful argument for what the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) said? It is not sufficient for the Government to say that they have no plans in that regard, then to let through legislation that could expand those powers and leave the Secretary of State the chance to do just that. I am not sure whether the Minister is coming to this point or whether he thinks that he has met it by saying that the Government have no plans in that regard. I do not think that that would meet the situation.
Subject to the following provisions of this section, a warrant is necessary on grounds falling within this subsection if it is necessary--
I quote that because a number of suppositions have been flying around, both in the Chamber and outside, about a range of very extreme circumstances in which the powers might be used. In fact, their use is limited by the scope of the clause. There is plenty of room for argument, and some right hon. and hon. Members have referred to the precise meaning of phrases such as
(a) in the interests of national security;
(b) for the purpose of preventing or detecting serious crime;
(c) for the purpose of safeguarding the economic well-being of the United Kingdom; or
(d) for the purpose, in circumstances appearing to the Secretary of State to be equivalent to those in which he would issue a warrant by virtue of paragraph (b), of giving effect to the provisions of any international mutual assistance agreement.
the economic well-being of the United Kingdom . . .
It is necessary to emphasise that we are talking not about some global power that has no trammels, but about a tight series of definitions which is open to discussion in Committee. That is where we start, and I think it an important point.
economic well-being of the United Kingdom
in the Bill or applied to the Bill? If so, one could, for example, say that someone might be justified, at least in theory, in intervening for the purpose of protecting jobs or commercial contracts because it would be in Britain's interests.
for the purpose of preventing or detecting serious crime . . .
I acknowledge the hon. Gentleman's point that benefit fraud and Inland Revenue fraud are areas of serious criminal activity. The police will naturally and correctly be involved with those activities, and they will have the power to address them.
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