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Mr. Eric Forth (Bromley and Chislehurst): I am slightly surprised and, frankly, disappointed that my hon.
Friend believes that his main objective and that of Members generally is to legislate. That assumes that all legislation is desirable. Surely, a large part of our duties here is to prevent bad legislation. It is not simply to legislate.
Mr. Amess: My right hon. Friend speaks a great deal of common sense--which is why he was given the award of Back Bencher of the year. He is a parliamentarian, and he understands better than most how this place works. However, if the arguments that we deploy are not intended to result in legislation, what is the point of having a Government? My right hon. Friend looks surprised. I am with him entirely on the point that we must have good and sensible legislation. That is why I am entreating him to serve, if the Bill receives a Second Reading, as a member of the Committee that considers it.
Mr. Forth: You do not need me.
Mr. Simon Burns (West Chelmsford): You do not want him.
Mr. Amess: We can argue about that later. I have noticed that, on previous Fridays, my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth), with one or two colleagues, has been terribly helpful in suggesting drafting improvements to Bills. We welcome any suggestions that he might make--but I am sure that he is not suggesting that we should have no laws or regulations whatsoever.
Mr. Amess: That is a more challenging view to cope with, but I am sure that, eventually, I shall think of a smart answer to it.
A few Fridays from now, my hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr. Duncan Smith) will be introducing a measure that I am sure even my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst will wholeheartedly support. Although I am sure that the overwhelming majority of hon. Members believe that we should have a little bit of legislation, I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for drawing that point to the House's attention.
On 26 February--this might please my right hon. Friend--the President of the Board of Trade, at a warm homes campaign meeting in his constituency, said:
I am using the emotive terminology "fuel poor" because we have to identify the issues in the debate. It is generally accepted that the fuel poor are those who must spend 10 per cent. of their disposable income on heating their homes. Other Government schemes help the fuel poor by improving homes and insulation levels. That is a sustainable way of helping to keep people warm, cutting pollution and reducing the emission of climate-changing gases, such as carbon dioxide.
Mr. Edward Garnier (Harborough):
Is there a distinction to be drawn between the poor and the fuel
Mr. Amess:
I should be delighted to help my hon. and learned Friend on that matter, and on anything else that he would like help with. I shall deal with the definition of fuel poor later in my speech. For now, however, I simply ask him to bear in mind that fuel poverty is generally accepted to affect those who spend 10 per cent. of their disposable income on home heating. If he carefully examines the Bill--he is a lawyer, so he will have done that--he will see that no one will be forced to do anything. I am a Conservative, and therefore do not believe in forcing people to do things that they do not wish to do. Nevertheless, clause 3 specifically deals with that matter. As I do not want to provoke Labour Members, I shall move on quickly.
In October, in his speech to the Labour party conference, the Prime Minister described one of the things that kept him awake at night. As we know, in two months, something else will undoubtedly be keeping him awake. However, in October, he asked:
The answer, according to Government figures, is a shocking 4 million people. Sceptics will say, "Hang on, David, 4 million? That is a huge number of people." I suppose that the situation is a bit similar to the one in which a person whom we know is really ill, but never complains about it, whereas a hypochondriac might always complain about being ill, but live to be 105. Out in the wide world, in winter, a huge number of people go cold for no good reason.
Mr. Paul Tyler (North Cornwall):
I am delighted to be a sponsor of the hon. Gentleman's Bill, which I warmly welcome. Does he accept that there are geographical concentrations of people who are suffering from fuel poverty, especially those who live in rather sporadic developments, in exposed locations and with low household incomes--such as in the west of Wales, Northumberland and Cornwall? Does he accept that, often, those people are not visible to those who are concerned about these issues? I warmly welcome his Bill, and I hope that he will accept that not only his constituents, but very many others in sporadic developments elsewhere will benefit from the Bill.
Mr. Amess:
The hon. Gentleman is probably right gently to point out that I am milking my constituency just a little bit too much. I pay tribute to him as a sponsor of the Bill. My hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Mr. Steen) has pointed out that there are specific issues to be addressed in the part of the country that the hon. Gentleman represents.
Mr. Forth:
Following that very interesting point, will my hon. Friend explore now the effect of different average ambient temperatures across the country on the phenomenon that is the subject of the Bill? It strikes me as very likely that, in Cornwall, the phenomenon may be very different from that, for example, in the constituency
Mr. Amess:
I am glad that my right hon. Friend has raised that point. However, I am a little nervous that, the more that I put in the Bill, the more fun will be had with it. That is why there is not such a mechanism in the Bill. I live in sunny Southend, but I fully recognise that there are many different climates in the United Kingdom. I am happy to say that the duty of analysing all those matters will be put, fairly and squarely, on the shoulders of the Government.
Mr. Amess:
My right hon. Friend sighs and heaves before he allows me to develop the point. I have spent a great deal of time contacting local authorities of all political persuasions, and I am delighted to say that, across the country, they have demonstrated huge support for the Bill. Some people might say, "Wait until they see how much it will cost," but I am very optimistic that, given local authorities' responsibilities, they will be able to help us in implementing the measure. If my right hon. Friend has any ideas about how he thinks such a mechanism might constructively be built into the Bill, I should be only too delighted to consider them. I am grateful for his helpful suggestion.
Mr. Alan Simpson (Nottingham, South):
May I try to help out the hon. Gentleman a little by saying that a great deal of work has been done in the House on how the wind chill factor should be used as a relevant part of assessments of fuel and housing poverty? Much work has also been done on the SAP--standard assessment procedure--energy efficiency ratings which apply to all new buildings in the United Kingdom. In subsequent dialogue with local authorities, part of our aspiration in dealing with the matter must be to reach a sensible view on how to take account not only of the objective SAP ratings on new-built properties, but of the specific geographical locations in which those properties are built. All of that should be built into the backdrop of consultation and dialogue with local authorities on the Bill's implementation.
Mr. Amess:
I could not see whether my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst was convinced by, or pleased with, that intervention, but I certainly welcome it. Perhaps we shall be able later to examine that matter.
Mr. David Maclean (Penrith and The Border):
The hon. Member for Nottingham, South (Mr. Simpson) said that much work has been done on the wind chill factor. However, am I not correct in assuming that wind chill
Mr. Amess:
Oh dear, I thought that this would be a consensual measure.
Simply shovelling money at people to heat the skies above our cities is hardly a sustainable use of resources. Nor will it help the fuel poor much.
We would all say amen to that. It would be crazy to do that.
How many of our pensioners will go cold this winter?
He was right to ask that question.
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