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Mr. Charles Clarke: Amendment No. 1 and the other Government amendments are technical amendments concerning proscription, and I will not go into the detail of them.
On amendment No. 186, I agree with the points made by the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Lidington): the decision is for the Executive. The issues that have to be taken into account include the nature and scale of the activity, the specific threat posed to the United Kingdom and to UK citizens abroad, the extent of the organisation's presence in the UK, the need to support other members of the international community in the global fight against terrorism and the importance of deterrence.
The Home Secretary and the Executive are the right people to take those decisions, with accountability to Parliament in the way that the hon. Member for Aylesbury described. I hope that the House will reject the amendment if it is pressed to a vote, but I urge the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes) to withdraw it.
I understand the motive behind amendments Nos. 162 and 163. It is a perfectly reasonable proposition that we should find a better way of binding the parliamentary process into the procedures. As I wrote to Committee members following this discussion in Committee, the role of the Intelligence and Security Committee is defined in section 10 of the Intelligence Services Act 1994. It is
- to examine the expenditure, administration and policy of--
(a) the Security Service;
(b) the Intelligence Service; and
(c) GCHQ.
I hope that the House will support the Government amendments and that the others will not be pressed to a vote.
12 midnight
Mr. Simon Hughes: I am grateful for the other contributions to this debate. Good and valid points were made by the hon. Members for Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) and for Greenock and Inverclyde (Dr. Godman), as well as by the right hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg). I do not agree with the view of the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Lidington) that there may not be an appropriate forum for other people to have a say in the process. If there is a method that would command greater support in terms of the public interest test, rather than a traditional court proceeding, we could reasonably consider it. On that basis, I shall seek the leave of the House to withdraw the amendment and I shall talk to my colleagues
to see whether we can increase citizens' powers and reduce the state's power slightly. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 6
Amendments made: No. 1, in page 3, line 26, leave out "leave" and insert "permission".
No. 2, in page 3, line 28, leave out "leave" and insert "permission".--[Mr. Charles Clarke.]
Clause 8
Amendments made: No. 3, in page 4, line 34, leave out from "Scotland" to end of line 8 on page 5 and insert "--
(a) for every reference to the Court of Appeal or the Crown Court substitute a reference to the High Court of Justiciary,
(b) in subsection (2)(b), at the end insert "and quash the conviction",
(c) in subsection (4)--
(i) in paragraph (a), for "28 days" substitute "two weeks", and
(ii) in paragraph (b), for "section 1 of the Criminal Appeal Act 1968" substitute "section 106 of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995",
(d) in subsection (5)--
(i) for "by a magistrates' court" substitute "in summary proceedings", and
(ii) in paragraph (b), at the end insert "and quash the conviction",
(e) in subsection (6), paragraph (c) is omitted,
(f) in subsection (7)--
(i) in paragraph (a) for "21 days" substitute "two weeks", and
(ii) for paragraph (b) substitute--
"(b) shall be by note of appeal, which shall state the ground of appeal,
(c) shall not require leave under any provision of Part X of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995, and
(d) shall be in accordance with such procedure as the High Court of Justiciary may, by Act of Adjournal, determine.".'
No. 4, in page 5, line 14, after "court,", insert--
'( ) the reference in subsection (6) to section 111 of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1980 shall be taken as a reference to Article 146 of the Magistrates' Courts (Northern Ireland) Order 1981,'.--[Mr. Charles Clarke.]
Clause 9
Amendment made: No. 5, in page 5, line 29, leave out--
'(but not paragraph 5(1)(a) or (3)(e))'.--[Mr. Charles Clarke.]
Clause 29
Mr. Charles Clarke: I beg to move amendment No. 6, in page 14, line 22, leave out "by a magistrates' court".
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): With this it will be convenient to discuss Government amendments Nos. 7, 8 and 10 to 13.
Mr. Clarke: The purpose of this group of amendments is to ensure that the provision for England, Wales and Northern Ireland set out in amendment No. 9 will also apply to Scotland. I hope that they are uncontroversial and can be agreed by the House.
Amendments made: No. 7, in page 14, line 25, after "Court," insert--
'() where the order is made by the sheriff in Scotland, to the Court of Session,'.
No. 8, in page 14, line 32, after "court" insert "or the sheriff".
No. 9, in page 14, line 42, at end insert--
'(5A) Subsection (5B) applies where a successful application for a forfeiture order relies (in whole or in part) on the fact that an organisation is proscribed, and--
(a) a deproscription appeal under section 5 is allowed in respect of the organisation,
(b) an order is made under section 3(3)(b) in respect of the organisation in accordance with an order of the Proscribed Organisations Appeal Commission under section 5(4) (and, if the order is made in reliance on section 121(4), a resolution is passed by each House of Parliament under section 121(4)(b)), and
(c) the forfeited cash was seized under section 25 on or after the date of the refusal to deproscribe against which the appeal under section 5 was brought.
(5B) Where this subsection applies an appeal under subsection (1) may be brought at any time before the end of the period of 30 days beginning with the date on which the order under section 3(3)(b) comes into force.'.
No. 10, in page 14, line 43, leave out subsection (6).--[Mr. Charles Clarke.]
Clause 30
Amendments made: No. 11, in page 15, line 4, leave out "or (6)".
No. 12, in page 15, line 5, leave out "or (6)".--[Mr. Charles Clarke.]
Clause 31
Amendment made: No. 13, in page 15, line 14, leave out paragraph (c).--[Mr. Charles Clarke.]
Clause 39
Mr. Charles Clarke: I beg to move amendment No. 14, in page 18, line 16, leave out "57" and insert "62".
Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss Government amendments Nos. 22 to 24 and 30.
Mr. Clarke: Amendment No. 14 extends the list of offences under the Bill in respect of which a clause 40 arrest may be made. Amendments Nos. 22 and 24 ensure that the police will be able to cross from one part of the United Kingdom to another to exercise the powers under clauses 40 and 42 to arrest or search a person suspected of being a terrorist. Amendment No. 23 gives the police explicit power to seize and retain things that may constitute evidence that a person searched under the clause 42 search powers is a terrorist. Amendment No. 30, in line with section 221 of PACE, provides that things may be retained as long as necessary in all the circumstances.
Clause 40
Mr. Charles Clarke: I beg to move amendment No. 15, in page 18, line 37, after "detained", insert--
'in accordance with subsection (5) or (6) or'.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Government amendments Nos. 16 to 21.
Amendment No. 164, in schedule 7, page 111, line 37, leave out "a judicial authority" and insert "the Secretary of State".
Amendment No. 137, in page 111, line 44, leave out "seven" and insert "four".
Amendment No. 179, in page 111, line 44, leave out "seven" and insert "five".
Amendment No. 165, in page 112, line 1, leave out subparagraph (4).
Government amendments Nos. 77 to 81.
Amendment No. 166, in page 112, line 23, leave out "A judicial authority", and insert "The Secretary of State".
Amendment No. 167, in page 112, line 39, leave out "judicial authority", and insert "Secretary of State".
Amendment No. 168, in page 112, line 39, leave out from "application" to end of line 4 on page 113.
Amendment No. 169, in page 113, line 7, leave out "judicial authority" and insert "Secretary of State".
Amendment No. 170, in page 113, line 11, leave out "A judicial authority" and insert "The Secretary of State".
Amendment No. 171, in page 113, line 26, leave out subparagraph (3).
Amendment No. 172, in page 113, line 31, leave out "a judicial authority", and insert "the Secretary of State".
Government amendments Nos. 84 to 89.
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