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Mr. Robertson: I am sure that it is wise to do so.
I support new clause 27, which would be very useful. It would concentrate the minds of those at the CSA charged with ensuring that money finds its way to parents with care so that children are helped, and with ensuring that people are not charged unfairly. The performance measures that the new clause could be said to be introducing would be very effective.
Target times are all well and good, but we must be aware that in some circumstances it might not be possible to meet such a target. The reasons may be outside the CSA's control--for example, it may not be possible to get the relevant information. When that happens, it would be far better to extend the time a little than to drop the case and allow the costs already incurred to fall to the taxpayer. That is not something that I support.
I am in favour of the new clause, but I think that we must keep something of an open mind about the possibility that the time limit might have to be extended sometimes. My hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr. Pickles) spoke about empowering people, and the new clause would empower people to receive what they are entitled to. In that way the taxpayer would
be relieved of the burden. The new clause would also mean that the non-resident parent--the one who does the paying--would receive the justice that he deserves.
All hon. Members know that delays cause many problems, and mean that parents with care and their children have to live without support. In the cases that I have dealt with, many problems have been caused by arrears building up, and the compensation provided for in new clause 27 might well have to be set against those arrears.
Mr. Bercow:
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way. I am sure that all hon. Members appreciate his balanced presentation of the case, but does he agree that new clause 27 is desirable, on its own account and because it would establish more widely the principle that compensation should be paid in the event of malfeasance?
Mr. Robertson:
I entirely agree. In many cases, compensation, had it been paid, would have relieved greatly the suffering of aggrieved parents, regardless of which side of the argument they were on.
Introducing time limits could prevent some of the problems that can be encountered. The threat of violence between the parties was mentioned earlier. I do not suggest that the new clause would remove such threats, but recognising and dealing quickly with them would lessen the risk of violence. There would also be less risk that people would disappear into the community and never having to pay a penny for their children. [Interruption.]
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but I hope that we can have a cessation of the chat lines going on between hon. Members on the Government Benches. I am trying to listen to the debate.
Mr. Robertson:
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am sorry that hon. Members do not find my remarks terribly interesting, but they may come to be seen as important.
A time limit would also simplify the system. If people are aware that the CSA means business and that it will sort out a case in X number of weeks, they might be more prepared to provide information, especially when they realise that compensation might be payable.
Mr. Swayne:
My hon. Friends have been eloquent in detailing the problems that Members of Parliament are faced with in their surgeries consequent upon the delays of the Child Support Agency. However, I think that their expectations of the impact of the new clause are rather exaggerated. In many respects, the problems are insoluble. When the CSA is confronted with those problems, it stands between two warring parties who have come to hate one another and who acknowledge no sense of
Mr. Pickles:
I am not sure that my hon. Friend is entirely right. The new clause offers an early warning system that things are not going right at the Child Support Agency. One of the earliest signs that the agency is getting swamped and things are going wrong is the length of time that staff take to reply to letters or make assessments.
Mr. Swayne:
I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. I began my remarks by saying what I think that the new clause would not achieve, despite some people's expectations. I now wish to deal with what the new clause would achieve, which my hon. Friend has drawn to our attention. Undoubtedly, many of the problems that compound the irritation and frustration of our constituents arise purely out of an administrative rather than a social problem. Part of that has undoubtedly been the lack of resources that have been made available to the agency. The Parliamentary Commissioner drew attention to that in reports to the House.
It must be acknowledged that there has been a huge improvement in the agency's performance, measured by the number of cases that have been referred to the Parliamentary Commissioner, which is sharply down, and the number of cases referred to Members of Parliament. Nevertheless, one of the principal purposes of the Bill, as we are constantly told, is to streamline the administrative process because the existing process is far too cumbersome. I see that the Minister nods her head. Given that one of the Bill's principal purposes is to achieve that administrative streamlining and, as a consequence, deliver a measure of justice that the existing system simply cannot deliver, it seems appropriate to have some means of measuring the effectiveness of that administrative improvement. The new clause provides precisely that mechanism.
It is appropriate that we should demand such provisions, because time after time in Committee, when we attempted to ameliorate what Ministers correctly referred to as some of the rough justice of the Bill, we were told that, although our amendments were desirable in themselves, they could not be accepted because they undermined the overriding requirement to deliver administrative efficiency. If the purpose of the Bill is to do that, surely the pay-off must be the provisions in new clause 27.
The Bill will, of course, deliver a much simpler system, but it will be a much rougher form of justice. As a consequence, it is proper to provide our constituents with a form of redress if the system continues to fall down and if its administrative procedures do not match up to expectations. That would provide an administrative incentive to the Department and to Ministers to ensure that the CSA is properly resourced and capable of delivering the administrative solution for which the Bill was designed.
Mr. Pickles:
The logical extension of my hon. Friend's argument is a point that I did not pursue. The provision
Mr. Swayne:
That is correct. That mechanism must be built into the system because it is so manifestly lacking under the existing arrangements which the Bill attempts to remedy. In effect, the provision is a form of management information. To include that is not only correct, but would introduce an element of justice and redress that the Bill does not contain. Much of the Bill trades justice and fairness for administrative convenience--not for the benefit of the Department but for that of the taxpayer and, indeed, the customers of the CSA, for whom the present system is unfair and unjust because it is so complex.
Mr. Bercow:
My hon. Friend will have observed that subsection (2) of the new clause states that the "level of compensation payable" is to be set out in regulations consequent on the clause. Is it my hon. Friend's understanding that the levels--I think the plural is intended, or, if not, it would be appropriate--of compensation should be specified in the regulations, and that they should not be subject to the personal discretion or the administrative fiat of CSA staff?
Mr. Swayne:
That is true. The principle of natural justice should apply to those regulations. Customers should be compensated for the tort--the wrong--that they have suffered; the compensation should right the injustice. I would expect that to be set out in the regulations. If that element of natural justice is not included, the Bill will not be compliant with the European convention on human rights. Presumably, Ministers have taken advice and reflected on that matter.
Mr. Bercow:
That would never do.
Mr. Swayne:
My hon. Friend is unfair. In Committee, we covered such matters exhaustively and Ministers provided some satisfaction on them.
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