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Mr. Eric Martlew (Carlisle): The hon. Gentleman is attacking the banks.
Mr. Pickles: The hon. Gentleman is living in a time warp; he says that the Tories are attacking the banks. He has perhaps never understood that the Tory party is on the side of pensioners receiving a fair deal. I have obviously stirred him up, and it is nice to know that he has a view on things. I look forward to his contribution, which I am sure will be eloquent.
We have received advice from Geoffrey Leigh, who is the development manager with the Norfolk Rural Community Council and a man of some importance. He says:
I cannot see how many of these cash points will end up in villages. And it doesn't help with many of the lower-income people in rural areas who don't have a bank account. Post offices with these will need additional security. It may make life worse for them. The Government has failed to get to grips with problems faced by rural communities.
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He is absolutely right.
Mr. Bercow: Does my hon. Friend recall that there was a little controversy a few moments ago about the position of my right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr. Lilley)? Is my hon. Friend interested to learn that on 15 February, on Second Reading of the Postal Services Bill, at column 825 of Hansard, my right hon. Friend made it perfectly clear that he had received advice about the damaging effect of the compulsory payment of benefits into bank accounts and accordingly rejected the silly proposal that the present Secretary of State for Trade and Industry has inadvisedly accepted?
Mr. Pickles: Of course I remember that point in my speech: I would have appalling short-term memory problems if I had not retained that information. I am grateful to my hon. Friend because he has put on record exactly what the position was, and no doubt when the Prime Minister reads my hon. Friend's contribution over his cornflakes, he will say, "I must get to the House of Commons as soon as possible."
Mr. Pickles: Where is the Prime Minister? Perhaps the Whip should go and summon him here now, but that would be an overreaction; tomorrow will be early enough for him to give the necessary apology.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. If we dwell on this matter, we will be straying from the new clause.
Mr. Pickles: I am grateful to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I had wrung just about all the possible humour out of that point.
We have serious problems that will not be solved by the short-term fix of simple banking services. In this highly competitive world, major high street banks will not be worried about providing simple banking services. I support the new clause.
Mr. David Drew (Stroud):
I cannot echo the remarks of the hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr. Pickles), but this is an important debate, and although it concerns a particular new clause, it is one of a series of debates about the future of the Post Office. Although I can support the aims of my near neighbour, the hon. Member for Northavon (Mr. Webb), I am not sure that the new clause is the appropriate means of achieving them because it has not been thought through.
I took note of what my right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) said, and of course this debate is on-going in the sense that automated credit transfer is not yet assured because the technology being installed in sub-post offices must be proved to be not only economically viable but technologically capable.
More important, I am worried about the important signals that the new clause would give out. First, it would send a signal to sub-postmasters and mistresses who are thinking about the future of their business. The most worrying aspect of the debate is that people's businesses are being put in jeopardy by loose talk. We are failing to give people confidence in their future. Those people have a future: every Member of Parliament believes that the national network is important; we are arguing about how to secure it, not whether to do so.
Negotiations are--or should be--taking place between the Post Office and the banks. That is where the arguments have to take place. The amendment worries me because it sends a signal to them to lay off, step back and procrastinate. When I meet the managing director of Post Office Counters Ltd. tomorrow, I shall ask him about some of the worrying rumours that I have heard. I shall ask him what negotiations he is engaged in, which banks he is talking to and what progress is being made toward the solution. Allowing people to delay for the next year or even longer will result in more sub-post offices being lost, along with confidence in the network, and that is the very thing we are trying to avoid. That is what worries me about the amendment. I can will the ends, but the means it employs strike me as counter-productive and potentially dangerous.
We are faced with two starkly contrasting options: adopt ACT, or leave things as they are. However, there is a third way, which is the inclusion of the smart card. We take no lectures from the official Opposition, who managed to make a complete hash of the Horizon system; it took years to get it up and running, then the swipe card had to be withdrawn because it never worked properly. We know that the smart card provides a potential answer, but the question is, who will pay for it? It cannot be paid for in full by any one party; a combination of different interests will be required.
I am worried about the outcome if we allow negotiations not to take place and we do not admit the potential of ACT and smart card technology. I am told that that technology is a killer application, which can be utilised, not only by the Benefits Agency, the Department of Social Security and local councils, but by other bodies who want people to have the opportunity to make payments through and into the postal network and sub-post offices. If we give any signal that those negotiations should not be conducted with the greatest urgency, we shall rue the day.
Mr. Webb:
The hon. Gentleman is making a serious contribution to the debate, for which I am grateful. He appears to be saying that a saving made by the Department of Social Security should be spent, in part, on a matter that is the responsibility of the Department of Trade and Industry. Has he made any representations to the Department of Social Security, which thinks that it will save £400 million, that the money should come out of its departmental budget? Does he think that the Department would let go of the money?
Mr. Drew:
That is the nature of the debate and it is what I expect to happen if we achieve joined-up thinking and joined-up action. We still await the report of the
Mr. Nicholls:
The new clause is extremely well targeted. It has enabled us to concentrate on an issue that to date has not been the subject of a satisfactory answer from the Minister. The Government's position throughout is that we are engaging in a completely synthetic argument, that there is no problem and that after 2003 people will still be able to collect their benefits in cash from sub-post offices. The Minister of State wrote to me recently making exactly that point. It is one of those statements that politicians like and it is true as far as it goes, but it does not tell the whole story.
Yes, people will be able to continue to take their benefits in cash after 2003, but only if they have a bank account. Lest anybody be in any doubt, it is worth while considering the literature that the Government have issued. It may be that fashions have changed over the past two years or so, but when I was in government I insisted on seeing the documentation that was going out in my areas of responsibility. I wanted to know whether it would give a misleading view of Government policy on the one hand and what I intended on the other. I expected to see that documentation in my red box. Those who doubt the impression that people have been given should read the literature that is being sent to the public. There is not the slightest doubt that individuals must be extremely cute to realise that at times they are being given a choice.
The documents to which I shall refer are deliberately calculated to deceive. I know that and I recognise them. I am a lawyer, and I am paid to draft documents that are calculated to deceive. I see other lawyers on the Government Benches nodding. I am prepared to give due credit to those who drafted the documents to which I shall refer. They are people who are capable of deceit of a high order.
Despite the fact that the Opposition Whip said that he wanted a passionate and prolix speech, I shall not try you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, by delivering one. Instead, I shall refer to a document which states:
Have your pension paid straight to your account.
That is the opening headline. I will read not the entire document but the following paragraph. It reads:
Wherever you are you can draw your pension from any branch of your bank, building society or the post office if you have a Girobank or National Savings bank account. You don't have to make special arrangements if you are away from home for a few weeks visiting family or friends . . . And it's easier to get your pension abroad.
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The key point is that someone can go to any branch of his bank, building society or the Post Office if he has a Girobank or National Savings bank account.
People are sent a form if they are applying for income support. It reads:
You can choose where to have your income support paid. We can arrange to pay your money straight into a bank or building society account. Or we can arrange for you to get your money at the post office, either by direct payment into a Girobank or National Savings bank account or by order book. Please read these notes before you decide which option you want to choose.
We then go into
Payment straight into an account.
The next form relates to those who are coming up for a retirement pension. The relevant pension reads:
"Where do you want to be paid--you can choose.
I said that this was deceit of a high order, and indeed it is. The form states:
You can choose where you want your Retirement Pension to be paid. We can arrange to pay your money straight into a bank or building society account. Or we can arrange for you to get your money at the post office, either by payment straight into a GIRO account or National Savings Bank account, or in cash by order book or Payment Card.
There are more of these documents, and they all say the same thing. They are designed to tell the individual the accounts into which the money can be paid.
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