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Mr. Rowlands: I do not think that the hon. Gentleman is right about the Welsh scene. Wales will not have local learning and skills councils. We will have voluntary bodies called CCETs, which will consist of about 20 people, almost all of whom will be from the further education sector. There will not be a comparable structure in Wales.
Mr. Allan: I understand that there will not be local LSCs, but the functions that the council will have in England will be controlled in Wales by the Welsh Assembly, and a regional assembly could do the same in England. We favour that model of accountability rather than the lower tiers of the detailed structure.
In England, we would like LSCs in the regions to answer to a regional assembly, rather than simply to the national Learning and Skills Council, as the Bill currently proposes. We are also in favour of the WDA's involvement, and would like to follow that model in England, which now has a tier of regional development agencies. I apologise if I gave the impression that I thought that there would be exact comparability. We are considering more the accountability route and the involvement of the development agency in the English context.
We seem to be developing a regional structure within England. Much of the old structure for the areas with which we are dealing in the Bill was delivered at regional level by the Government offices of the regions. That structure was set up by the previous Government. We have some experience of that approach and we believe that that would be the appropriate level.
The CBI is considering how we can deliver appropriate training with the flexibility that we want. Yorkshire and the Humber does not have to deliver the same thing as the south-west or any other region. We believe that there could be real flexibility through more regionalisation. In the area that I represent, for example, the engineering sector is looking for things from the regional skills base which perhaps might not be appropriate somewhere in the south-west, where there may be a much stronger focus on other forms of skill.
We have some concerns about business involvement in the structures. Business has not always managed to deliver in the past. Many past structures have had significant business involvement but have not necessarily delivered. Contrary to what has sometimes been suggested, even beefed-up business representation on learning and skills councils is not a magic wand. It will not necessarily lead to any improvement.
In many ways, the public sector is picking up on the failure of the private sector to deliver. Business has not delivered the training for its employees, which it should properly be doing as part of its own structure and viability. The bodies that we are setting up will be picking up the pieces and providing training for business.
Mr. Brian Cotter (Weston-super-Mare):
I hope that there will from time to time be an emphasis on the smallest businesses within the organisations to which my hon. Friend is referring.
Mr. Allan:
One of the key issues will be the relationship between the Small Business Service and the new bodies that we are setting up--the LSCs--in terms of determining how they will feed in their requirements. Mention has been made of the enterprise element of training and enterprise council work. That element was especially valuable to some of the smaller businesses that did not have access to facilities on their own.
I understand that Conservative Members in another place proposed amendments to the formula for composition, with a fixed 25 per cent. for local government and a fixed 40 per cent. for business, for example. We do not favour such a prescriptive model but we are seeking reassurances that there will be broad representation.
Local government has an enterprise function. In that connection, anything that is done about skill shortages and boosting the local economy will invariably have an impact on the broad range of local government services. They are all of a piece. Local government controls education, social services and services in general, and they are all tied into the regional or sub-regional economy. The LSCs will form an important part of that structure. Strong representation from local government will be important but, as I have said, we are not convinced that there should be a prescriptive model.
I have already mentioned representations from the national training organisations. That role will be important, especially in maritime areas, for example, where there is a particular requirement. That role will be important also in other areas.
Some big questions remain about the transition from TECs to the new structures. The discretionary funds have already been mentioned. It has been pointed out to me by the Sheffield TEC that discretionary funds are used not only for enterprise functions but sometimes for training functions. There are extant training programmes that are doing a good job and which the TEC would like to see transferred to the new structures. I hope that we do not lose those programmes as we go forward. We should not assume that the discretionary funds are being used purely for enterprise.
The picture that we get is that effectively everything will be put on hold for a year or two. It is inevitable that in a time of change things will slow down. I see that the Minister is shaking his head. My TEC tells me that it is losing staff all the time. They are leaving the sector and looking for jobs elsewhere. The TEC is putting such programmes as European funding programmes on hold because its experts have applied for other jobs and left because of the uncertainty. That is a real issue that we must address. The Government can do something about it by accelerating the process of informing people and indicating what their long-term future will be.
We cannot afford too long a delay. People should not have their current contract terminated without knowing with any clarity whether they will get a subsequent contract. Their natural inclination will be to leave to find jobs elsewhere. That will happen unless the Government take swift action to put in place some security of tenure. That will be especially necessary in South Yorkshire, where TECs are amalgamating. Objective 1 areas need that more than anywhere else.
I accept that that is special pleading, but objective 1 status covers many areas. We shall be delivering huge amounts of training as part of objective 1 programmes. The Minister will be aware that if we do not get the funding through quite quickly, we shall lose it. As we are entering the programme, it is vital that we have the organisations in place that can deliver the training so that we can get rid of as much uncertainty as possible.
The TUPE implications have been referred to in the context of TECs. We need to know with more clarity what their liabilities will be. I understand that TECs feel that they will be significant. Many of them feel that where they are described as having an asset, they actually have a liability. For example, those TECs which have leased rather than purchased buildings may have to pay money to get out of the lease, rather than realising an asset. I understand that in South Yorkshire, the LSC will have its headquarters in Sheffield and that there is an issue relating to the building that the current TEC occupies. Other premises are used by the other two TECs in the area. As we unravel the proposals, I suspect that the financial situation will not turn out to be favourable. I think that it will be rather less favourable than was anticipated.
Mr. Boswell:
I agree with many of the points that the hon. Gentleman has been making. Does he agree that there is a particular technical problem with the TEC
Mr. Allan:
The hon. Gentleman is perfectly right. Some of the more successful TECs have been working hand in hand with chambers of commerce. The situation will have to be unravelled, and that will take time. That process of unravelling will draw attention away from the job of delivering education and training. I hope that the Government will accept that that is a genuine concern raised in the spirit of wishing to see these proposals succeed rather than fail. I know that the Government will try to be positive.
Concerns have been raised by bodies such as the National Youth Agency and the Careers Services National Association as well as by Opposition Members. I know that my noble Friend Baroness Sharp of Guildford managed to secure an amendment on Third Reading, which will be quite useful. I suspect that the Government will seek to remove it, but I would ask them to think twice about doing that. The purpose behind the amendment is to put into the Bill assurances about the range of provision that the careers service will offer.
We believe that we need to concentrate on the few as well as the many. The Government frequently take the opposite approach. In this context, the few are the 9 per cent. who leave education without any formal skills. They are a vital group and they have not been reached before. They have tended to be ignored as targets for general achievement become higher. When we reach an 80 or 85 per cent. target we think that we are doing well, but the 9 per cent. are being left out. We understand the focus and we think that it is entirely right that the Government should want to work on it, but we would argue that that should be additional to what is already being done. We seek assurances from the Government that they can achieve that additionality.
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