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Mr. Leigh: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I wonder whether we are elevating a new principle for our proceedings. We have just heard from the Minister that the issue that we are discussing is a matter for the Treasury, because that is the only Department that can make decisions on it, but Treasury Ministers cannot be bothered to come to the House because they have other things to do. Is not the House more important--
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): Order. That is not a point of order for the Chair. It is for the Government to choose who represents them on their policy.
Mr. Rooker: And it is not what I said, either. There is another aspect of the Bill that is essentially a matter for another Department, but it is wholly in order and I shall answer on that later in the debate, just as I did when we debated the Welfare Reform and Pensions Bill last year.
Mr. Eric Pickles (Brentwood and Ongar): What about child care?
Mr. Rooker: The decision on child care will be made by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who made the original decisions--and announced them in his 1999 Budget--on the extension of national insurance to benefits in kind. Since then, he has decided to introduce a child care exemption. I do not know the exact figure, because we do not have the necessary wording in the regulations, but it is about £1 million. The changes that we are considering will raise £225 million, so the child care element is peripheral.
We can deal with amendment No. 62 very quickly. It is unnecessary, because of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor's Budget announcement. The Bill provides powers for the issue to be dealt with by regulation in due course. We shall carry that through for issues that are exempted. Section 10(9), to be inserted in the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 by clause 69, provides for class 1A contributions not to be payable or to be reduced in prescribed circumstances. The issue is fully covered and will be dealt with in regulations in due course. There is no secrecy. Provision will be made, but not in the Bill.
I also cannot support amendment No. 63. Excluding private health care provision from class 1A contributions would undermine the main purpose of the measure, which is to align the tax and national insurance treatment of benefits in kind and to make the national insurance system fairer by bringing closer together the treatment of cash and non-cash earnings. The extension of class lA
will reduce the distortion in the national insurance system, which provides the incentive for employers to remunerate their employees with benefits rather than cash.
Bearing in mind what hon. Members have said about the national health service, of the £225 million that will be raised--roughly half of which will involve health care--£17 million will go to the NHS.
Mr. Rooker:
Of course it is extra. It is £17 million new income.
The measure's prime purpose is to make the scheme fairer and to reflect modern pay practices. Rather than subsidising large firms, which can afford to offer their employees large packages of benefits in kind, at the expense of small firms and their employees, we prefer to level the playing field--and put more money into the national health service.
The amendments would deprive the NHS of £17 million.
Mr. Willetts:
We have had a useful short debate. I congratulate my hon. Friends the Members for Tewkesbury (Mr. Robertson), for New Forest, West (Mr. Swayne), for Grantham and Stamford (Mr. Davies) and for Gainsborough (Mr. Leigh) on making some telling points, but I am afraid that the Minister's contribution was extremely depressing. It leaves us with no option other than to press the amendment to a vote, for two reasons: because we believe in encouraging child care and responsible employers rather than in imposing an extra 12 per cent. employers' contribution, which is a tax on child care; and because it will make the Government look absolutely ridiculous.
We are trying to implement a Budget measure, and the Minister will have to explain why he has decided to put his troops through the Lobby to vote against something that was in the Budget. We know that the Budget has had a rocky couple of weeks, but it seems a bit much when, the first time that a Budget measure is presented to the House, the Government Whips decide to vote against it. That is getting rather carried away.
The Minister's ultimate defence was, "Don't worry. We don't want to vote with you on the amendment tonight, but we will introduce a regulation that will have exactly the same effect." Why will he not simply vote with us to make the amendment? I look forward to seeing his correspondence with the Chancellor, explaining why he was not able to support an amendment that simply implements what was in the Budget.
Question put, That the amendment be made:--
The House divided: Ayes 143, Noes 265.
Tellers for the Ayes:
Tellers for the Noes:
Question accordingly negatived.
AYES
Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Allan, Richard
Amess, David
Arbuthnot, Rt Hon James
Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Ballard, Jackie
Beith, Rt Hon A J
Bercow, John
Beresford, Sir Paul
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)
Brady, Graham
Brake, Tom
Brazier, Julian
Breed, Colin
Brooke, Rt Hon Peter
Browning, Mrs Angela
Burns, Simon
Burstow, Paul
Butterfill, John
Cable, Dr Vincent
Campbell, Rt Hon Menzies
(NE Fife)
Chidgey, David
Chope, Christopher
Clappison, James
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth
(Rushcliffe)
Collins, Tim
Cotter, Brian
Cran, James
Davies, Quentin (Grantham)
Davis, Rt Hon David (Haltemprice)
Day, Stephen
Duncan, Alan
Duncan Smith, Iain
Evans, Nigel
Faber, David
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Michael
Flight, Howard
Forth, Rt Hon Eric
Foster, Don (Bath)
Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman
Fox, Dr Liam
Fraser, Christopher
Gale, Roger
Garnier, Edward
George, Andrew (St Ives)
Gibb, Nick
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl
Gray, James
Greenway, John
Grieve, Dominic
Gummer, Rt Hon John
Hague, Rt Hon William
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie
Hammond, Philip
Harris, Dr Evan
Hawkins, Nick
Hayes, John
Heald, Oliver
Heath, David (Somerton & Frome)
Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David
Horam, John
Hunter, Andrew
Jenkin, Bernard
Johnson Smith,
Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Key, Robert
King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater)
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Kirkwood, Archy
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lansley, Andrew
Leigh, Edward
Letwin, Oliver
Lewis, Dr Julian (New Forest E)
Lidington, David
Lilley, Rt Hon Peter
Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)
Llwyd, Elfyn
Loughton, Tim
MacGregor, Rt Hon John
MacKay, Rt Hon Andrew
Maclean, Rt Hon David
Maclennan, Rt Hon Robert
McLoughlin, Patrick
Malins, Humfrey
Maude, Rt Hon Francis
May, Mrs Theresa
Moore, Michael
Moss, Malcolm
Norman, Archie
Oaten, Mark
O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)
Ottaway, Richard
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Pickles, Eric
Portillo, Rt Hon Michael
Prior, David
Randall, John
Redwood, Rt Hon John
Rendel, David
Robathan, Andrew
Robertson, Laurence
Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne)
Rowe, Andrew (Faversham)
Ruffley, David
St Aubyn, Nick
Sanders, Adrian
Shephard, Rt Hon Mrs Gillian
Shepherd, Richard
Simpson, Keith (Mid-Norfolk)
Soames, Nicholas
Spelman, Mrs Caroline
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spring, Richard
Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Steen, Anthony
Swayne, Desmond
Syms, Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Ian (Esher & Walton)
Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)
Tonge, Dr Jenny
Trend, Michael
Tyrie, Andrew
Viggers, Peter
Walter, Robert
Wardle, Charles
Waterson, Nigel
Webb, Steve
Wells, Bowen
Whitney, Sir Raymond
Whittingdale, John
Willetts, David
Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesfield)
Yeo, Tim
Young, Rt Hon Sir George
Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown and
Mr. Peter Luff.
NOES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)
Alexander, Douglas
Allen, Graham
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)
Anderson, Janet (Rossendale)
Armstrong, Rt Hon Ms Hilary
Ashton, Joe
Atherton, Ms Candy
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, John
Barnes, Harry
Barron, Kevin
Bayley, Hugh
Beard, Nigel
Beckett, Rt Hon Mrs Margaret
Bell, Martin (Tatton)
Benn, Rt Hon Tony (Chesterfield)
Bermingham, Gerald
Berry, Roger
Blears, Ms Hazel
Blizzard, Bob
Blunkett, Rt Hon David
Bradley, Keith (Withington)
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Bradshaw, Ben
Brinton, Mrs Helen
Brown, Rt Hon Nick (Newcastle E)
Browne, Desmond
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Byers, Rt Hon Stephen
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Campbell-Savours, Dale
Caplin, Ivor
Casale, Roger
Cawsey, Ian
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Rt Hon Dr David (S Shields)
Clark, Dr Lynda
(Edinburgh Pentlands)
Clark, Paul (Gillingham)
Clarke, Charles (Norwich S)
Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Clelland, David
Clwyd, Ann
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ms Ann
Coleman, Iain
Colman, Tony
Connarty, Michael
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)
Cooper, Yvette
Corbett, Robin
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cousins, Jim
Crausby, David
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S)
Dalyell, Tam
Darling, Rt Hon Alistair
Darvill, Keith
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
Davidson, Ian
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Dawson, Hilton
Dean, Mrs Janet
Dismore, Andrew
Dobbin, Jim
Doran, Frank
Dowd, Jim
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Edwards, Huw
Ennis, Jeff
Field, Rt Hon Frank
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Fitzsimons, Lorna
Flint, Caroline
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Rt Hon Derek
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings)
Foster, Michael J (Worcester)
Foulkes, George
Gardiner, Barry
Gerrard, Neil
Godman, Dr Norman A
Godsiff, Roger
Goggins, Paul
Golding, Mrs Llin
Gordon, Mrs Eileen
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Grocott, Bruce
Grogan, John
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)
Heal, Mrs Sylvia
Healey, John
Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Heppell, John
Hill, Keith
Hoon, Rt Hon Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howells, Dr Kim
Hoyle, Lindsay
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Humble, Mrs Joan
Hurst, Alan
Hutton, John
Iddon, Dr Brian
Illsley, Eric
Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampstead)
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Jenkins, Brian
Johnson, Alan (Hull W & Hessle)
Johnson, Miss Melanie
(Welwyn Hatfield)
Jones, Rt Hon Barry (Alyn)
Jones, Helen (Warrington N)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston)
Keen, Ann (Brentford & Isleworth)
Kelly, Ms Ruth
Kemp, Fraser
Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)
Khabra, Piara S
Kidney, David
King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)
King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green)
Laxton, Bob
Lepper, David
Leslie, Christopher
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Terry (Worsley)
Liddell, Rt Hon Mrs Helen
Linton, Martin
Lock, David
Love, Andrew
McAvoy, Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McDonagh, Siobhain
Macdonald, Calum
McDonnell, John
McGuire, Mrs Anne
Mackinlay, Andrew
McNulty, Tony
MacShane, Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
McWalter, Tony
McWilliam, John
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury)
Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Marshall-Andrews, Robert
Meacher, Rt Hon Michael
Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)
Miller, Andrew
Moffatt, Laura
Morley, Elliot
Morris, Rt Hon Ms Estelle
(B'ham Yardley)
Mountford, Kali
Mullin, Chris
Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)
Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)
Naysmith, Dr Doug
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
Olner, Bill
O'Neill, Martin
Osborne, Ms Sandra
Palmer, Dr Nick
Pearson, Ian
Pendry, Tom
Perham, Ms Linda
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter L
Plaskitt, James
Pollard, Kerry
Pond, Chris
Pope, Greg
Pound, Stephen
Powell, Sir Raymond
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Ken
Quin, Rt Hon Ms Joyce
Quinn, Lawrie
Radice, Rt Hon Giles
Raynsford, Nick
Reed, Andrew (Loughborough)
Reid, Rt Hon Dr John (Hamilton N)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Rooker, Rt Hon Jeff
Rooney, Terry
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Rowlands, Ted
Roy, Frank
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Ryan, Ms Joan
Salter, Martin
Sawford, Phil
Sedgemore, Brian
Sheerman, Barry
Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert
Short, Rt Hon Clare
Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)
Singh, Marsha
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, Angela (Basildon)
Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)
Smith, John (Glamorgan)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Soley, Clive
Southworth, Ms Helen
Spellar, John
Squire, Ms Rachel
Steinberg, Gerry
Stevenson, George
Stewart, David (Inverness E)
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Stinchcombe, Paul
Stoate, Dr Howard
Straw, Rt Hon Jack
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann
(Dewsbury)
Taylor, Ms Dari (Stockton S)
Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)
Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)
Tipping, Paddy
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Paul
Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Turner, Dr George (NW Norfolk)
Turner, Neil (Wigan)
Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Walley, Ms Joan
Ward, Ms Claire
Watts, David
White, Brian
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Williams, Rt Hon Alan
(Swansea W)
Williams, Mrs Betty (Conwy)
Wills, Michael
Winnick, David
Wood, Mike
Woodward, Shaun
Woolas, Phil
Worthington, Tony
Wright, Dr Tony (Cannock)
Wyatt, Derek
Mr. David Jamieson and
Mr. Don Touhig.
'.--(1) In the provisions of the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 that are set out in subsection (2) (provisions relating to additional pensions for surviving spouses)--
(a) the references to 5th April 2000 (wherever occurring) shall have effect, and be deemed always to have had effect, as references to 5th October 2002; and
(b) the references to 6th April 2000 (wherever occurring) shall have effect, and be deemed always to have had effect, as references to 6th October 2002.
(2) Those provisions are--
(a) sections 39(3) and 39C(4)(widowed mother's allowance and widowed parent's allowance);
(b) sections 48BB(7), 48C(3) and 51(3) (Category B retirement pensions); and
(c) paragraphs 4(3), 5A(2) and (3) and 6(3) and (4) of Schedule 5 (deferred pensions).
(3) For section 52(3) of the Welfare Reform and Pensions Act 1999 (power to substitute a later year for references to year 2000 in prescribed provisions of the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992) there shall be substituted--
"(3) The regulations may amend (or further amend) any prescribed provision set out in section (Preservation of rights in respect of additional pensions) (2) of the Child Support, Pensions and Social Security Act 2000 (which sets out provisions falling within subsection (2) of this section) so as to substitute a reference to a later date for--
(a) any reference in that provision to 5th October 2002 or 6th October 2002; or
(b) any reference to a date inserted in that provision by a substitution made by virtue of this subsection."
(4) After section 52(4) of that Act of 1999 there shall be inserted--
"(4A) The regulations may provide, for the purposes of any provision made by virtue of subsection (4), for a case in which a person who, as a consequence of receiving incorrect or incomplete information, did not give any consideration to--
(a) the taking of a step which is a step he might have taken had he considered the matter on the basis of correct and complete information, or
(b) refraining from taking a step which is a step he did take but might have refrained from taking had he considered the matter on that basis,
to be treated as a case in which his failure to take the step, or his taking of the step he did take, was in reliance on the incorrect or incomplete information and as a case in which that step is one which he would have taken, or (as the case may be) would not have taken, had the information been correct and complete."
(5) In section 52(6) of that Act of 1999 (supplemental provisions of regulations relating to the scheme), after paragraph (e) there shall be inserted--
"(ea) prescribing the matters that may be relied on, and the presumptions that may be made, in the determination of whether or not the prescribed conditions have been satisfied;".'.--[Mr. Rooker.]
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